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Roy Shults's avatar

Powerful and true. We all need courage and love and compassion. But we also need leaders who will stand up for all of that. Those opposed to the MAGAtrocity we are living lack powerful voices now. The Democratic leadership, such as it is, remains missing in action. Meanwhile the morbidly rich continue to pillage and plunder, and the poor, the ignorant, the vulnerable, the dispossessed, suffer more by the day.

I have never had the energy for hate, or the rank stupidity it requires. But I see it and its hideous effects in too many people I know. If we let the MAGAts turn us into haters, they won’t win—their overlords will. We need to show them their real interests, lead them to follow their better natures and realize that in doing so they will have happier days, alive with love and solidarity, not dark and dead with derision and division. That is our challenge if we want to rescue our country before it’s too late.

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William Farrar's avatar

I guess I am stupid, because I hate racists, racism, theocrats, theocracy, I hate intolerance and bigotry, and supremacy. Which means that I must hate those that subscribe to those ideologies.

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Roy Shults's avatar

No, Mr. Farrar, you are human. My wife is like you, and I have found a lot of Greeks are, especially where Turks and Muslims are concerned, for historical and tribal reasons. I guess I have experienced transformations over the years in people who hated me but got to know me and in at least two cases became lifelong friends. I have to believe no one is beyond redemption. We just have to find the right key to open their minds. It is not easy, often not pleasant, but the alternative is just engaging in a bloodbath, hoping we win, and believing that somehow we will not emerge changed from that. My family, with a military history hundreds of years old, tells me that is nigh on impossible. War changes everyone, victims and victors alike. And another civil convulsion in this country would redefine us in unpredictable but almost certainly negative ways, if it did not lead to our conquest by an opportunistic China or some combination of other countries.

At 77 and in poor health, I will not likely be here to see it, though with the fast pace of things these days, you never know. Maybe idiot Zuckerberg's super intelligence AI project will lead our creations to go full SkyNet on us and eliminate us as the planetary plague we have become. I rule nothing out anymore. But enjoy your always thoughtful and heartfelt posts.

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David's avatar

Roy,the Democratic leadership is missing,previous democratic leaders,past presidents are missing.When we have so few Bernie,AOC,Chris Murphy,Chris VanHollen,Jamie Raskin,the chances of pushback are diminished. I don't think,showing them their real interests will make a difference. They believe in power,Fascism. Their tenants are "Compassion is a weakness" " Cruelty is a Virtue" and " Kindness is a liability" . We are dealing with those who are barely human,there is no changing them.

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Daniel Solomon's avatar

We are a minority party ahd have to think out of the box. Constantly demeaning allies won't get us out of the hole.

This might. https://jerryweiss.substack.com/

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William Farrar's avatar

Associated with demeaning allies Daniel, is the inability or lack of desire on the left to focus. too many groups, with too many agendas, seeking attention and primacy.

I saw a sign held up on No Kings Day, green, red and black, something to the effect that blacks have rights and as an afterthought at the bottom immigrants.

Mexican flags, Palestinian flags, even a communist flag, be it the environment, racism or LGBT rights, too many people trying to force their own agenda to the front and distracting, especially those waving foreign flags (WTF is with that, we want to enlist middle America not alienate it).

We are confronted with a dictator in the making, he already has his feet well planted, and yet we have the counter productive spectacle of people trying to get attention and force their own agenda to the top, when they should be united in toppling the would be King, and King is the wrong word. King's are supported by nobility that pay taxes, and provide martial support, as well as enforce the King's laws.

Trump is doing the bidding of what might be called nobility, they certainly aren't paying taxes, and don't provide martial support. Rather they use Trump to milk he nation as if it were a cow.

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skayen's avatar

I agree that "king" is the wrong word. That's why my June 14 sign said "No Knaves" aka "dirty, rotten scoundrels" which applies to the entire administration. After hearing that our St. Paul demonstration was called off due to the assassination of our Senator Melissa Hortman and her husband, 30,000 people participated in the march and rally at our State Capitol. Countless tears and hugs were shed and exchanged along with healing thoughts for Senator John Hoffman and his wife.

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Daniel Solomon's avatar

I guess you missed No Kings. According to the National Park Service, more than 12 million participated.

Trump is executing on the question: "what would Putin do?"

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Roy Shults's avatar

No Kings was great. But what lasting impact will it have. Unless EVERY day becomes No Kings day, meaning something close to the classic general strike, I see little impact. ICE is still running amok, the felon in chief still has the military, Congress and SCOTUS.

What do we have? Words. Lots and lots of words. But little power, moral or otherwise, that exhibits any impact. We do need to take one page from the MAGAts. WE need to "break things"--their current hold on our country and its metastasized institutions.

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William Farrar's avatar

Well the estimate nation wide is 5 million showed up in all cities, so I presume that the NPS estimate of 12 million is for Trumps birthday party.

The NPS like all other cabinets now is merely an extension of Trumps id.

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Daniel Solomon's avatar

No. The organizers, Indivisible, only counted their own people. Lots of other groups unaffiliated with them participated. https://www.facebook.com/AltUSNationalParkService/posts/were-honored-to-announce-a-final-count-of-1314-million-in-attendance-across-2300/1128367172666807/

I read where gthere were less than 10,000 at the parade per se.

There were protesters in DC at 3 other sites.

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Judy Jensvold's avatar

I agree with you and you have said it very clearly.

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Carol A. Heasley's avatar

In my opinion, they are empowered to do cowardly acts like murdering people at their doorstep, dragging an elected official on the floor, manifesting from the now iconic status of the man who murdered the health care official. 'They' are emboldened by the type of notoriety he received, fueling their cause and hate.

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William Farrar's avatar

What you are witnessing Carol,is the mentality and ethos of thugs and bullies.

They are attracted to police work in the first place, because police work legitimizes their instincts and character.

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Carol A. Heasley's avatar

I have heard about the police mentality and ethos being that of thugs and bullies. Because we are conditioned to the notion that the police are there to protect us, I forget about the fact that police work legitimizes their instincts and character. I have also observed that in young people who become police officers, the culture cultivates those instincts.

However, if they entered another profession, their instincts and character would likely be suppressed or even turned around, as in the case of my stepson, who chose to become a therapist instead. I saw some of those instincts and fantasizing about the job as a young person that attracted him to a career in law enforcement. He went another direction after the police department turned him down because he revealed he had smoked marijuana before he applied to the police academy. I am not sure whether what I saw in my stepson was male aggression or a desire to be a thug.

Although he actively participates in the minute-by-minute surveillance from his therapy office in Roanoke, Virginia, he interferes in my life and my mentally disabled son's life by creating havoc. He even coordinates with my health care, Kaiser, via staff who tell him, for example, I am overeating or I am not eating enough, etc. It gets even more intimate than that. Sounds like thuggery to me.

I am now in my second decade of dealing with the police here in San Diego, and they refuse to take charge of the stalking and harassment that I must endure 24/7. They make a joke of my situation. They creep around wherever I

I am, but they do nothing about the apparent stalking. The department places the burden of proof on me to show that cars or people following me are intimidating me.

I do know that the department is fully aware of how the surveillance allows

The constant harassment and where it comes from.

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William Farrar's avatar

I am sorry to hear about your situation, but it sounds very familiar. Cops don't take a domestic situation seriously, until the victim gets hurt or killed.

All you have done is validate my opinion of cops, which is very low.

Socially cops are near the bottom rung of the ladder, they know it and resent it. They cream their pants if they get an opportunity to haul over and arrest their "betters", Like wrestling Sen Padilla, Arresting a Mayor or a Judge,or a political candidate. They love it.

If I were you I would consider contacting a lawyer and filing for a restraining order.

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Daniel Solomon's avatar

Relevance?

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William Farrar's avatar

Plenty.

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Ruth Kuttler's avatar

Your message is so powerful and what every american needs to hear and share. I'm wondering why you didn't make this post audible. In today's world, it's unfortunate, but people don't like to read. I loved Louise's song - always an alignment with your podcast. Both of you are an inspiration and a gift that has helped to awaken Americans and foreigners to what is happening and why and what we can do about it.

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Thom Hartmann's avatar

I did read this and it's available under the Daily Read tab at the top of the page when you go to the home page.

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Tim Everton's avatar

Ruth, you are generalizing. Many people, such as I, enjoy reading much more than listening. It's more "Whatever form suits you."

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Tom Halstead's avatar

Fear sells, and America is generously endowed with avaricious consumers thereof. It’s too kind to suggest that Tr*mp “reinvented the GOP”. He exposed it, allowed it to shed the “veneer of dignity” it once disingenuously displayed. Mike Lee knew his response to the recent Minnesota murders was consistent with Repugnican orthodoxy and would be happily embraced accordingly. They’ve been showing us who they are for decades; we fail to believe them at our peril.

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Daniel Solomon's avatar

When they overreact and overreach they do us a favor. To take advantage, co-opt Republicans.

“Today we speak with one voice to express our outrage, grief, and condemnation of this horrible attack on public servants. There is no place in our democracy for politically-motivated violence. We are praying for John and Yvette’s recovery and we grieve the loss of Melissa and Mark with their family, colleagues, and Minnesotans across the state. We are grateful for law enforcement’s swift response to the situation and continued efforts.”

Statement of Minnesota Congress members.

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William Farrar's avatar

Reading the signs held up in LA and during No Kings protests, they certainly weren't speaking with one voice, while the major thrust was No Kings, there were too many out there promoting their own myopic agenda.

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Daniel Solomon's avatar

You're right Thom.

But his cult is a minority. I still think the election was stolen. And his demagoguery was supported and substatiated by Russian psy ops. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2024_United_States_elections

There is a valid argument that Trump is either an agent or willing idiot for Putin.

I'm hoping that Trump/MAGA will implode. Yesterday I posted I've been monitoring the reaction to Trump/Iran in right wing circles.

Republican hawks vs Maga isolationists: the internal war that could decide Trump’s Iran response. - Andrew Roth. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jun/17/republican-hawks-vs-maga-isolationists-the-internal-war-that-could-decide-trumps-iran-response

Trump's Most Favorable Pollster Warns It Could Be 'All Over for MAGA'

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-pollster-warns-all-over-maga-iran-israel-2086637

MAGA supporters split on whether Trump should follow court rulings

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/5353865-maga-supporters-split-on-whether-trump-should-follow-court-rulings/

Poll: Americans overwhelmingly want Trump to obey court rulings, but MAGA Republicans are split

Eight in 10 respondents believe the Trump administration shouldn't ignore a federal court ruling the White House doesn't like, per the new NBC News Decision Desk Poll.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/poll-americans-overwhelmingly-want-trump-obey-court-rulings-maga-repub-rcna212783

Everything Trump has said about Iran so far is complete bullshit. See Tucker Carlson and Ted Cruz battle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chCAMS-_2RM. Like two tarantuals in a jar.

When it happened, Rubio said it was a complete surprise.

Appeared at G7 as Putin's agent. Takes credit for Israel's success in Iran... the entire story is fabricated. Never had a conversation about assassination. During his middle east trip, he took multiple tributes -- and sold out Israel by granting Syria a get out of war card, at a time when Israel was protecting the Druze. Did a "deal" with the Houthis, who immediately sent missiles into Israel. His vision for Gaza is another Trump resort.

Reverse Robin Hood. Robs from the poor -- takes all he can get.

Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis are proxies for Iran. Sure looks like retribution is involved.

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William Farrar's avatar

What if we all could agree? https://www.mind-war.com/p/what-if-we-could-agree-on-one-thing?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email#media-1e7dc081-1f4e-4c42-a77d-c36967b70590

"

In all sincerity, is there any way we can stop playing the Big Game long enough to save the world from annihilation by a man who is manifestly incapable of making good decisions? This is not a political thing. Truly, it isn’t.

By example, I bring to the argument people I despise, who are nevertheless saying things about Donald Trump’s decision-making surrounding the Israel-Iran war I agree with.

Tucker Carlson to Steve Bannon: “I think we’re going to see the end of the American empire. It’s also going to end Trump’s presidency.”

Nick Fuentes to Alex Jones: “As Alex Karp from Palantir said ‘we’re going to be in a war with Russia, China & Iran at the same time.’”

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alis's avatar

Do The Right Thing

Sometimes the kindest and most loving thing you can do is fight back. This is especially true if you want to protect those people and environments that are precious. Some folks are not capable of helping us win those fights.

There is something disgusting about the universities and law firms caving to Trump's basest instincts. They could help us, but choose not to. Many of our billionaires choose not to fight---they prefer to be oligarchs.

So out of love for the people of this country and for our environment, we ARE fighting back. We are going to win. There will be a price. Soldier-up. Let's make them do the right thing. See you in the streets.

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Judy Jensvold's avatar

TH writes the Noem , "press conference last week declared its mission was to “liberate” Los Angeles from its mayor and governor."

I think it is highly important to get the full quote about staying in LA "to liberate the city from SOCIALISTS."

Trumpers and his elite followers, like Musk (and those before like Birchers to Reagan) consider Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid evil socialism. Some ever think the Post Office, public schools and fire departments are socialism and they are all evil. We need these things for the 'common good' just as we need our socialized military for the 'common defense.' We need a socialized, goverment-run military, not privately owned, for-profit armies of mercenary soldiers. They want to see everything owned by privately owned, for-profit entities.

Trump is using "divide and conquer" to defeat SOCIALISM, just as Jim Crow leaders kept poor Blacks and Whites divided and poor by making them hate and fear each other and not see the economic and political elites who were keeping them poor.

We should not act or speak assuming all Trumpers are haters. By calling them "haters" do we amplify the hate? Do we prevent ourselves and them from seeing our common bonds? Do we stay divided when we need to be united against the oligarchs?

Noem told the truth. It's about SOCIALISM. Bernie Sanders detoxified the word. Let's use it.

Tell people Trump thinks Social Security is wrong because it is a government program, an evil socialist program. Let's point out the good (yes, but imperfect programs) socialist programs, local and federal like public schools, Medicare, fire departments, etc.

Trumpers are out to get rid of the evil socialists. We need to amplify the good socialists program, many of them decades old, that have been the best of the American Dream and need to be strengthen, not destroyed.

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Sir Okie Doke's avatar

I heard that Donald speaks to Vlad every week—Vlad, who wants to Navalny the U.S.

'Nuff said.

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Sabrina Haake's avatar

A brilliant and insightful post. I appreciate in particular the note of hope: hate, as a time-worn tool of cohesion, eventually turns against its own adherents. But republican allies aren't just talking about siccing the military on American citizens, they're doing it. Every dem-run city is under direct and overt threat. Trump is demanding a $1 trillion dollar defense budget while promising to keep the US out of foreign entanglements. It’s only a matter of time before Senators put two and two together and figure out that Trump wants $1trillion to morph the military into a domestic attack force to be deployed on American soil, against American citizens, as is happening in real time in LA, and as Trump posted his threat against 'democrat stronghold cities.'

god help us, we've given a psychopath the nuclear codes.

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Daniel Solomon's avatar

Feathers of Hope. Hoping that Reps Don Bacon, Mike Turner and others would come forward re Ukraine. https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/08/us/politics/breaking-with-trump-bacon-says-he-wont-follow-his-party-off-the-cliff.html

Two tarantulas in a jar. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsxpk1l7D44

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Donald Laghezza's avatar

As Thom writes, stirring up, feeding, and using hate is the oldest path to control of communities, societies, nations, and ....

The crisis we face now is that clear-thinking, well-meaning and generally decent people have no cohesive AND organized counter to the well-funded, carefully planned, layered and slickly propagated messaging that builds and focuses hate to carry forward an equally structured agenda of political goals.

We are at war and Progressives have no clue how to plan for a long-term campaign of movement, fall-backs, traps, and lightening assaults, as needed. And we have few if any who can even step up to take charge of what is a long-term struggle.

From what I have seen, the closest is Bernie, with a still learning AOC.

This is a knife fight, and we have people still singing Gumbahyah and It's a small world, afterall.

I get dozens of appeals for $5 each day from various splinter groups for their particular, micro focused issue and plan to "fight back".

there should be ONE organization, with ONE pot, managed by a long-sighted planning and action team.

Since the '60s I have been arguing against every injured group getting their 5 minutes at the microphone. I am sorry, but hearing from the HANDICAPPED LESBIANS with AIDs and then turning it over to the next group does NOTHING but give FOX an erection as they gleefully use the footage to further splinter the American body politic into jealous and competitive antagonists.

We should have been struggling to ensure the things that everyone needs gets to everyone, without celebrating their differences... Celebrate we are all in the same boat.

We have no one to blame but ourselves for the lazy and flabby slouching toward the "Republican Lite" feel-good lah-lah land that the Clintons and Obama represent.

At least Joe Biden made some effort as he woke up to what was being lost... but too late.

After considerable thought, I believe that at the root of all that is happening is the realization by the powers that be/big money that there is no way -- at least a way that would leave their wealth intact -- to head off the ecological calamity that is coming.

The alternative is a police state; walls keeping out the masses -- I mean millions -- of people who will be migrating as they die; wars; and islands of serenity for the chosen few.

D. Laghezza

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Neal's avatar

Good article on Trump & hatred. But, as you often say, Trump is just the shiny object upon which corporate media focuses. Please shine the brightest lights of scrutiny on Trump’s enablers & their ongoing activities: Thiel/Palantir, Karp, Musk/Starlink, Koch/ALEC

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Leonard Carpenter's avatar

One neglected aspect of hate is guilt. It's a paranoid reaction that becomes part of the vicious cycle. Haters know, in a suppressed intellectual sense, that they are wrong, illogical, and they resent being despised for it, or especially being called out, disputed or rebuked. The shame fuels their fury. They know what evil they would do to you, and they assume you would do or wish the same on them, so shame and fear make them lash out all the more viciously, desperately. I spoke to a

a fascistic friend in defense of "aliens" and he replied, "The Chinese all hate us." So he has turned his xenophobia into a persecution complex. And it's aptly named, phobia or fear lies at the root of hatred, likely as an infantile response. Trump's lies start with rape, violence, very primal fears such as being pushed in front of a subway train. There's a carefully nurtured trajectory to bring us to the point of justifying violence, rendition, exiled imprisonment, and genocide. But it's still infantile, primal fear, layered with guilt and shame.

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Porter's avatar

America has allowed its democracy, if it ever actually had one, to be hobbled. Red states, a majority of the components of the so-called "United" States of America, have instituted ways to maintain Republican power through gerrymandering or, like Georgia in particular, just removing tens of thousands of eligible voters from the voting roles.

Right now we have a fascist dictatorship in America. People are pulled off the streets or from their places of work by masked people without stated cause. Democratic politicians are assassinated, or simply roughed up, while attempting to exercise their former oversight ability.

The President, who has hired complacent incompetents to run, shrink or outright destroy their agencies, threatens death to opponents on the world stage, and opens every so-called negotiation with maximalist threats, brooks no disagreement, no viewpoints, other than his own and expects obedience and subservience at every level and in every contact with his underlings (that is, you and me and the average citizen of this or other countries).

Should his uncertain health, physical or mental, cause him to die in office or somehow be removed from office for incapacity, he will be replaced by a very nasty and similarly psychotic Vice President. No matter which one of them is in power toward the beginning of 2026, there will be a clear statement that the country is doing so well that we don't need to have what was formerly called "midterm elections."

Benjamin Franklin, on leaving the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, was noted to have said, and I paraphrase here, "You have your Republic, if you can keep it."

We can't. American democracy is in its death throes.

What are our options? Leave for somewhere else away from Fascist America, rise up against the Fascist dictatorship, or fight back in any manner that turns out to be effective, even to a small degree at first. Educate Americans as to what is happening. Support activist organizations that recognize the dangers that are growing stronger every day. Go out of our way to support a free press, no matter whether in print or online.

I don't think we'll win but we should not go into the darkness without a fight.

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William Farrar's avatar

Porter, to not fight back is to surrender. And fighting back will get violent.Words and parading with signs is not fighting back,protests will not topple the regime, nor induce it to change, and I am not so sure that we will have a legitimate election in the future, not when they control the lever on the voting arm as Daniel Solomon has pointed out, and as the SAVE act shows (Women won't be able to vote unless the name on their identification matches the name on their birth certificate, and that doesn't exclude just women, but whole swathes of the population.

No pain no gain is what my physical therapist says.

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R D Noisemaker's avatar

And of course, the haters on the right use projection to accuse us of the same thing. A guy on Facebook asked me a few months ago, "Why do you HATE Tr*mp so much?" I replied, "What I hate is cruelty, intolerance and injustice. Tr*mp represents all of those things." I noticed that he got awfully quiet after that. I think the correct side will eventually win, but it will be a long, extremely exhausting fight. As some previous commenters have said, we need a new generation of strong leaders who won't back down, no matter how difficult it gets. No Kings was a necessary and successful step, but we can't stop there.

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William Farrar's avatar

I had a right wing dilettante on Robert Reich accuse me of being a leftist, rather than running away, I flummoxed him, by accepting the label and proudly.

Am I liberal? Yes, Am I progressive?Yes, Am I leftist? Yes. You see I have learned from them,I accept their slurs and then double down.

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R D Noisemaker's avatar

Exactly! Own the label. Don't let them turn it into a dirty word. I completely agree.

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William Farrar's avatar

Gays have done that, the word queer no longer has it's negative effect, and gays proudly wear it. Niggah is a word that black use all of the time, like "hey niggah", but the PC crowd has pushed it too far, and created blow back, a reaction that helped motivate MAGA, and by stifling speech we haven't changed policy, politics, minds only drove it underground where it festered and grew like the cordyceps, till it broke out like a dam breaking when Trump appeared on the scene.

By stifling speech, the bigots, the haters have been forced underground and we commune with them without realizing who they really are. Now they are in the open and we can see them.

Taake this war Trump and Hegseth have on DEI. It is an openly racist, bigoted and misogynistic attack on half or more of the population, but I've only seen one source call it out for what it is.

The Republican party is racist, bigoted, misogynistic and theocratic and manipulated by plutocrats, but I will be damned if I can find any source calling them out for just that.

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R D Noisemaker's avatar

It's been said that "DEI" is the new "n-word." That makes sense to me. In general it seems that right-wingers in particular enjoy taking well-meaning euphemisms and turning them into something dirty. They did that with the word "woke," which course originated in the Black community. Ask a right-winger to specifically define "woke", and they'd be hard-pressed to do it but they'll most certainly be triggered by it.

BTW, I didn't know what "cordyceps" was and had to look it up, but I think I'll find it useful in the future. Thanks for that! ;-)

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William Farrar's avatar

It is not just the right wing that can't define woke, it is politicians, talking heads even on MSNBC, folks like Bill Maher.

Woke is like a piñata, it is a container for all of the bias and prejudices of its opponent. It's constant misuse has rendered it meaningless. Using language as a weapon. is as old as pharonic heiroglyphs, but it took Frank Luntz,to really bring the tactic to the forefront in Republican politics, and it has taken off like a rocket.

Shame on the Democrrats for not doing the same. "We are too good for that dishonesty" attitude has culminated in the destruction of our way of life and our democracy.

You fight fire with fire, water and axes. The Democrats have done neither, but rather tried to appeal to the pre frontal cortex of people whose only functioning brain is the amygdala.

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R D Noisemaker's avatar

Very well said, especially the last paragraph. :)

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Tomonthebeach's avatar

Not surprising that another Roy Cohn mentee, besides shameless Republican Joe McCarthy, has refined the use of hatred as a political tool to twice achieve the presidency. Only unlike McCarthy, Trump's answer to questions regarding his personal character is to fuck off. Being honorable or feeling shame is for suckers and losers.

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William Farrar's avatar

Then we best learn from them, as it has proven effective, hasn't it? When you find yourself faced with an adversary that has a gun, you better not have a knife, unless you are within 6 ft or less.

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Marick Payton's avatar

As always, excellent analysis, Thomm. For me the seductive power of hate is shown in my own delicious fantasies of dropping a bomb on the next Presidential cabinet meeting.

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Robert Herreshoff's avatar

Hate is a powerful glue that binds the alienated, marginalized, and disaffected together. It reifies and validates their antipathies,. In the process to provides them with an "other" to despise and machinate against, a well-defined (to them) homogenous yet invariably false group (all blacks, Jews,... are alike) that they place below themselves so that they might stand highe. Thereby they raise themselves up so that they no longer perceive themselves as the bottom rung of a contemptuous socitey. This "other" is weaker and therefor is a target for victimization. Having victims who can not protect themselves makes the haters feel empowered and eager for more. In the process they perceive themselves as being ever stronger until they become a major social force. Society then finds itself at a crossroads: resist, deny, or adopt.

That is where we find ourselves today: Even if the choice is clear, and most if not all of us here are probably going to opt for resistance, the means of doing so its unclear. Good luck to us all if we fail to stop the hatred in time.

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William Farrar's avatar

You aren't going to tell me to love and embrace our enemies are you?

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Robert Herreshoff's avatar

I'm not a Christian but that is what Jesus taught. And Gandhi. And the Buddha. Hating and pushing away our enemies, a method tried repeatedly over the millennia, hasn't worked very well either. If you have another means forward please share it

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William Farrar's avatar

I am not so sure that there was a Jesus, and the words attributed to this Jesus were, in my estimation, written by Roman patricians like Piso Turning the other cheek is just what they would want, don't envy or interfere with your betters, don't complain, don't rise up, don't retaliate.

And Ghandi, well here is something for you. The Brits did not leave India because of Ghandi. They were frightened of the "ghosts" of Subras Chandra Bose, and the Indian national Army and millions of pissed and armed Indians.

The powers that be want you to be able to let off steam, peaceful protests are a pressure relief valve, but then they go about things as if nothing happened.

MLK's million man march achieved nothing, however the reaction to his assassination sure did

Nothing happened in LA until the cops were acquitted of beating Rodney King, then some reforms, or titurlar attempts at reform were made in the wake of the riots.

Do you think, that Derek Chauvin would have been tried for murder if it weren't for the fear that Minneapolis would be burnt to the ground.

The voting rights act was only passed after the beatings and violence at the Edmund Pettis bridge, and the deaths of the three activists.

On the other hand weeks of the Occupy movement, achieved what? The city of Seattle left a small group occupy a part of a street, they even elected their own mayor, the cops barricaded the street at both ends and left them alone, after a couple of weeks they folded their tents and went home.

And who said anything about hating your enemies. Those who act in hate, act in haste and are poorly led or guided. One can hate one's enemies and should, but that means recognizing them, being aware, fighting them effectively, but this Kumbaya shit is surrender.

And I do hate bigots, racists, authoritarians, theocrats. I certainly do not love them, not am I a neutral or just consider them with curiosity or pity?

Do you? Will you embrace your enemy? You do have enemies that will do away with you if they could.

Would you embrace a python. Pythons don't kill out of hate, they kill to eat.

Not all animals kill to eat, some kill for the joy of it, as entertainment.

I have four cats, I love them, but am glad that I am not small as a mouse, because they don't kill just to eat, they play with their prey, and often will kill and then walk away from the kill.

Thee of them are indoor cats, one is a barn cat that adopted us, He demands to go outside, but always comes home, even after sabbaticals,was one 43 days the last time.

He often brings a present in form of a rodent, but I've seen him play with his prey, then walk away and leave it, after it no longer interests him.

Watch a cat with a cat toy.

Humans manifest all of the characteristics of all animals, for we are just one part of the animal kingdom.

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Robert Herreshoff's avatar

Could quite be true that Jesus didn't exist but I have a difficult time erasing the apostles from the picture. Although there is no hard evidence of their existence there are peripheral indications that they did. The rapidity with which Christianity developed suggests some force that drove that expansion. What I can't accept (other than in an agnostic way) is that Jesus was not the son of god, an entity that I do not believe in. Hopefully this does. not offend any Christians who might read this: I have the highest regard for anybody who tries to follow the teachings.

I don't disagree with your position regarding Gandhi. However, I do believe his path was/is significant.

Again, I agree regarding, at least in part, letting off steam. I look at protests held once or twice a month from noon to two as virtue-signaling; nothing is going to be accomplished by them, except perhaps Big Brother knowing who.. you. are. Strikes that stop The Machine, ones that preclude having a nice night's sleep and a good breakfast, that cost you physically and emotionally are the only ones that will affect the status quo. In a sense most of us are complicit in our own oppression. I just don't know how to get the ball rolling.

As for Chauvin, I don't know. That the guy was an asshole goes without saying. My guess is that he was thrown to the wolves but not because Minneapolis was afraid of another Rodney King.

Change, assuming that it will happen at all, is not going to come without a serious cost. People are hesitant to put their comfort on the line, ignoring the probability that the entire System is going to collapse upon them regardless and that ultimately the pain will be way, way worse.

I have to apologize to you for my earlier anger. There is no excuse for my words.

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