Neither is a nation where a simple accident or illness can result in homelessness. Or a nation where a raped woman is forced to carry a pregnancy to term at the point of a gun...
Maybe the well-regulated militia is necessary to take down those who have so abused their "rights" to have guns. If children, teachers, or civilians are illegal, but fair game for gun owners with no pangs of conscience, then gun owners should be fair game as well, for the government to take down. Of course, this is just rhetoric on my part.
We, really do live in a America now where we need to remember those who sacrificed their lives for us to have the freedom we really take advantage of. Thom all your points you made would be the meaning of real freedom.
"Big Church" - I haven't heard that before and I think that is an important phrase to point out that some of these churches while "non profit" status are profiting greatly and are a special interest group!
First, We “had” a 2 party system. Not now. And yes, the Democratic Leadership has failed, as has the Republican Leadership. And yes, the progressive/non-PAC funded folks have been ruthlessly blocked as well as policing modifications looking towards Public Safety/Professional Guided psychologically trained sections within police departments instead of violent, military-warfare equipped combat units. These issues need to be addressed, including not letting mis-information to “slip-by” …the next day. Russia? They are a threat, as we are to them. They do meddle in our political confusion, as we do to them. What Thom is doing, rather than innuendo, grating optimism, Red Scare propaganda and blinders to political leadership… is research, well annotated and referenced, that can be fact checked. Thom also readily admits error when factually called-out. You may accuse him of sloppy, misguided presentation but it is not. Our system is broken badly and if we are to save it, someone, mortal as they are and prone to error as we all are, needs to shine the light and tell it like it is. Thom does just that. More power to him.
Stephan,
You are simply incorrect. The Grand Old Party is not what it use to be. It has left well-balanced conservatism, promotes uncontrolled gun distribution and use that does result in violence and death. Same with many imbedded “so-called” democrats. Likewise, January 6th did happen and it was led by an ex-president and his crew. Describing these matters is not “hate speech”. Abortion has been “criminalized”. Expressing research data, pro or con, is not poisonous rhetoric. I beg to differ with your high school debate analogy: I do believe Thom would win on total points.
Jackie,
I have lived here since 1934. Yes, many sacrificed their lives. What has happened since then is equally horrific. To not be able to wake up, in sunshine, and greet/hug your loved ones, friends and neighbors is unimaginably painful sad. To honor those, not only on this day, but in total memory, we need to civilly put forth our arguments, actual annotated facts, come to civil solutions (not offense-oriented war) and create an acceptable place to be. I believe Thom is headed in that direction and Barry and Stephan, in their hearts, are too.
Our problem is one of context, not content. As the great socio-biologist, E.O. Wilson, said, if mankind doesn't end tribalism, tribalism will end mankind. We're not going to change these hooligans. They're too rich, powerful, and sophisticated in their methods for us to change. Rather, we're going to have to end their context of rivalrous tribalism, and create it's alternative, what some are referring to as collaborative holism. It's time to stop talking about the antics of the puerile hooligans and start discussing how we go about replacing their context with our context. What thinketh thou, Thom?
If you want to use the hate word, then all I can say is, hateful is as hateful does. Pointing out all the hateful things the modern Republican Party as a whole has done is NOT hate speech. The last thing Thom would ever do is hate on his fellow human beings. He has spent a lifetime doing the opposite.
I appreciate your point of view Thom, because you are an expert about the industry you work in. So much of the hate and change with Republicans started with talk radio and then FOX came along and put that on steroids. Add the psychopath they put in the White House, who is hate personified, and here we are. Our human rights and democracy are on the line.
The truth has never meant more to an outcome than it does today. All the what-abouts and both-side-ism in the world cannot excuse what they mean to do to America and the people they should PROTECT.
The points are well taken, but first we must accept that the US is a democracy only for those with significant accumulated wealth (that might include you Thom). And while you continue to blame Republicans pretty much exclusively, last time I checked this is a two-party system and one party has failed to protect us. Your grating optimism, Red Scare propaganda and blinders when it comes to the Democratic Party has not served us well as Democratic leadership continues to try and crush any progressive/non-PAC funded candidacy they can. And let's not get into those "moderate white liberals" and Defund the Pollice. Here is a dose of reality and I do hope any of your followers in lieu of calling me names will tell me where I am wrong: https://medium.com/@barrykaufman/when-it-comes-to-inhumanity-misinformation-and-unaccountability-the-us-and-russia-are-birds-of-a-518694e3b0cd
So let me understand this. Dems are at fault for not doing enough to prevent mass shootings bec a Dem president in his last year in office shut down a govt agency/project?! I missed the part where Dems are trying to get assault rifles, high capacity ammunition removed, better background checks, red flag laws implemented, you know everything the Repubs have an excuse for. This is the most disingenuous comment I’ve seen in quite a long time.
The unbalanced political status in America that has prevailed since the 1980s has done a lot of damage to an entire generation, and its children. The laziness of American voters has been the culprit, of course, and we, the voters, slept through the entire process and allowed Reagan-Bush-Clinton to strip away everything all of Roosevelt's hard-earned legislation gave us after the 1928 Depression, and we ignored Eisenhower's warnings about allowing the Military-Industrial Complex to operate freely as we celebrated, each year, the bravery of our young men, on Memorial Day; the violence of our perpetual wars stripped people everywhere of their homes and safety, so our commerce and industries could replace their domestic systems. We celebrated the Clinton's as they unleashed the entire US banking system and gave us NAFTA, and took all the jobs away south of the Border - and then we watched the impoverished 159 million migrants pour into the US labor market, and our schools, during the 1970-2022, and we were so proud of being so nice. But neither liberals nor conservatives volunteered in our schools as our English Language population hit 50% in many of our classrooms in our cities.
Now comes the US Mid-terms, 2022, and the Democratic Party is in danger of not only losing the Senate, but also the presidency in 2024. And we are still not paying attention to what a broad voter base of independent and common sense voters want for themselves and America. Biden and his emissaries are in Geneva giving the unelected WHO regime powers to over-ride the entire US Constitution any time the pharmaceutical companies need a new profit year. And Biden and both parties are pouring money into the Military Industrial complex in the name of saving the Ukraine from Putin, and inflation is running somewhere north of 8-16%.
Guess waiting for the replacement of five (5) US Supreme Court judges by a Democratic Party that is just as unbalanced as the Republican Party has been since 1980 is s great strategy. Not.
How about focusing on NOT re-electing any of our politicians anywhere, until we have a broad sense of SERVICE and they know they just get ONE TERM, and then they need to go home again? All of them.
Our political system is gyrating back and forth between two equally dysfunctional power groups, and neither party is listening to the rest of us. Both groups are evil.
Mr. Hartman's citation:
If Democrats seize enough political power this year, they must make overturning Citizens United and its evil predecessors their first priority when Congress begins next January. Everything else flows from that corrupt cancer of legalized bribery that five Republicans on the Supreme Court embedded in the heart of American democracy.
Hey Thom. Two things. First, thank you for your opinions on how to solve all of the problems in the country.
Second, the rhetoric used to justify your argument is nothing less than hate speech. Claiming that “Republican-supported mass murders of schoolchildren, the GOP attempts to overthrow our government, and their glee to criminalize abortion” is both repulsive and utterly deceitful.
It’s understandable why both sides claim the other is evil but such rhetoric poisons the well of discourse and looks to condemn all those that agree with your strict and demanding ideology. If one doesn’t adhere to your conclusions, they should be condemned and are on the side of evil.
Clearly you can use such toxic straw man arguments. However, if you presented them like this in a junior high school debate class, you might win the support of similarly minded adolescents. But no doubt, you’d lose the debate.
Clearly you haven’t discovered The Lincoln Project. Republicans who believe in democracy, gun control and keeping insanely stupid people out of the Executive branch.
I didn’t know the Jan 6 insurrection was a straw man. What’s a real argument, burning down the Capitol??
The straw man is to claim that Jan. 6 reflects the sentiments of some 80 million people. It’s wildly deceptive and can only result w more hate.
Thoms claim that Republicans support the mass murders of schoolchildren, and that the GOP attempts to overthrow our government, and are happy to criminalize abortion is simply false. It’s a childish way to make an argument. That kind of rhetoric is as poisonous as anything a ridiculous person as Trump has ever said.
No one (Tom or anyone else) claims that Republicans support the mass murders of schoolchildren, but I don't believe it's arguable that the Republicans think that the mass murder of schoolchildren is better for them politically than to favor any and all forms of gun control. When push comes to shove, Republicans leaders have proven that they favor gun rights over innocent schoolchildren's (and adults') right-to-life.
Not exactly sure what you're saying about Thom's claims. He in fact said, and I quote: "Republican-supported mass murders of schoolchildren, the GOP attempts to overthrow our government, and their glee to criminalize abortion.” I'm unsure how to interpret this claim except that he somehow believes that Republicans support the efforts that murder kids. This kind of language is gross hyperbole and intended to make people hate Republicans. This kind of toxic rhetoric does nothing but further divide us. It's wrong when either uses these rhetorical tactics.
I encourage Thom to push for more drastic gun laws. Supporting serious problem solving measures are what healthy adults should do. Harsh disagreements will always be a part of the process. Ridiculous hyperbole, however is coercive and is exactly what 16 year old kids depend on to push there opinions onto others. I realize Thom seriously supports strict gun reforms. Condemning his enemies with sensational and immature rhetoric will not help his cause ... unless part of that cause is empower people to hate each other.
Again, you are not understanding the argument and throwing around terms of straw man and accusing Thom of calling Repubs mass murderers is again disingenuous.
The Republicans decided since Sandy Hook, it is better politically to support the NRA and no gun control rather than improve gun safety ( the new buzz word for control). So in essence, not trying to get assault guns and background checks, in essence accessibility to guns so easy, they are supportive of mass murders in that there is no effort to stop it. Please see other countries such as GB, Australia, etc who quickly and effectively dealt w mass killings.
Thank you all for providing another discussion that seems to be conducted with thought and sincerity, yet there are clear disagreements. That makes this a wonderful opportunity to test a theory I have, and try to find where our opinions diverge by starting at the beginning of everything Constitutional, which is, what do you believe is the purpose of our government? If you would agree that the purpose is to meet the six objectives found in the Preamble, and do it in collaboration with our citizens using best practice-based solutions and Constitutional principles (or something to that effect), then we have a common understanding to discuss how to get better over time. However, if you believe, for e.g., that the purpose of our government’s decision-makers is to serve their corporate masters, then we would have little to discuss because we would be arguing our positions in support of different purposes. In addition, while I’m on the subject of purposes, my opinion is that the primary purpose of the Second Amendment was to ensure that the slave patrols (whether conscripted or not) of the cotton oligarchs were properly armed so they could keep their slaves down on the plantation. Someone who has not yet learned that particular fact would be unlikely to engage in a useful discussion with me. So whether it’s talking about our elected officials or how to come up with the best way to solve our gun problem, we need to first share a common purpose before we can move on. Otherwise, we’ll just keep getting more of the same.
Excellent points all around! Love the way you address the complexity of these very existential matters. And I respect your questions about the Preamble. In a few words I agree w the objectives. All I want to do is to work for a better union and re-establish justice … which I believe will be the only way to insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty for all of us!
Of course the idea of justice gets thrown around so much that not many people stop and actually consider what it is or what it might be. We assume we know but we also know just how hard it’s been to come up with a universal definition of the term.
As for your other question about corporate overlords, unfortunately given the ugly demands of modernity and all its drive for efficiency, our corporatocracy almost seemed inevitable. Sad really because I’ve seen the terrible dehumanizing effects it’s had on people and our country.
How to turn the ship around? May be impossible but I do know if it can only take place when we commit to a rhetoric of reconciliation and cease the consuming desire to marginalize and cancel those with whom we disagree. Tall order but it’s definitely worth figuring out ways to make it happen. Thanks again for your good questions and kind approach. Only the best!
A well regulated militia doesn't murder children, teachers or civilians.
#SecondAmendment #Congress #CitizensUnited #NRA #Scotus
Maybe the well-regulated militia is necessary to take down those who have so abused their "rights" to have guns. If children, teachers, or civilians are illegal, but fair game for gun owners with no pangs of conscience, then gun owners should be fair game as well, for the government to take down. Of course, this is just rhetoric on my part.
We, really do live in a America now where we need to remember those who sacrificed their lives for us to have the freedom we really take advantage of. Thom all your points you made would be the meaning of real freedom.
"Big Church" - I haven't heard that before and I think that is an important phrase to point out that some of these churches while "non profit" status are profiting greatly and are a special interest group!
“Handgun freeze in Canada and five-round limit on magazines.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/31/handgun-freeze-in-canada-and-five-round-limit-on-magazines
You nailed it Thom. Thank you once again. Hoping and working for a blue tsunami! Vote them out and start healing our country
Barry,
First, We “had” a 2 party system. Not now. And yes, the Democratic Leadership has failed, as has the Republican Leadership. And yes, the progressive/non-PAC funded folks have been ruthlessly blocked as well as policing modifications looking towards Public Safety/Professional Guided psychologically trained sections within police departments instead of violent, military-warfare equipped combat units. These issues need to be addressed, including not letting mis-information to “slip-by” …the next day. Russia? They are a threat, as we are to them. They do meddle in our political confusion, as we do to them. What Thom is doing, rather than innuendo, grating optimism, Red Scare propaganda and blinders to political leadership… is research, well annotated and referenced, that can be fact checked. Thom also readily admits error when factually called-out. You may accuse him of sloppy, misguided presentation but it is not. Our system is broken badly and if we are to save it, someone, mortal as they are and prone to error as we all are, needs to shine the light and tell it like it is. Thom does just that. More power to him.
Stephan,
You are simply incorrect. The Grand Old Party is not what it use to be. It has left well-balanced conservatism, promotes uncontrolled gun distribution and use that does result in violence and death. Same with many imbedded “so-called” democrats. Likewise, January 6th did happen and it was led by an ex-president and his crew. Describing these matters is not “hate speech”. Abortion has been “criminalized”. Expressing research data, pro or con, is not poisonous rhetoric. I beg to differ with your high school debate analogy: I do believe Thom would win on total points.
Jackie,
I have lived here since 1934. Yes, many sacrificed their lives. What has happened since then is equally horrific. To not be able to wake up, in sunshine, and greet/hug your loved ones, friends and neighbors is unimaginably painful sad. To honor those, not only on this day, but in total memory, we need to civilly put forth our arguments, actual annotated facts, come to civil solutions (not offense-oriented war) and create an acceptable place to be. I believe Thom is headed in that direction and Barry and Stephan, in their hearts, are too.
Our problem is one of context, not content. As the great socio-biologist, E.O. Wilson, said, if mankind doesn't end tribalism, tribalism will end mankind. We're not going to change these hooligans. They're too rich, powerful, and sophisticated in their methods for us to change. Rather, we're going to have to end their context of rivalrous tribalism, and create it's alternative, what some are referring to as collaborative holism. It's time to stop talking about the antics of the puerile hooligans and start discussing how we go about replacing their context with our context. What thinketh thou, Thom?
If you want to use the hate word, then all I can say is, hateful is as hateful does. Pointing out all the hateful things the modern Republican Party as a whole has done is NOT hate speech. The last thing Thom would ever do is hate on his fellow human beings. He has spent a lifetime doing the opposite.
I appreciate your point of view Thom, because you are an expert about the industry you work in. So much of the hate and change with Republicans started with talk radio and then FOX came along and put that on steroids. Add the psychopath they put in the White House, who is hate personified, and here we are. Our human rights and democracy are on the line.
The truth has never meant more to an outcome than it does today. All the what-abouts and both-side-ism in the world cannot excuse what they mean to do to America and the people they should PROTECT.
I, am so happy to have the freedom to know Thom Hartmann, that really says a lot that is go about being American.
The points are well taken, but first we must accept that the US is a democracy only for those with significant accumulated wealth (that might include you Thom). And while you continue to blame Republicans pretty much exclusively, last time I checked this is a two-party system and one party has failed to protect us. Your grating optimism, Red Scare propaganda and blinders when it comes to the Democratic Party has not served us well as Democratic leadership continues to try and crush any progressive/non-PAC funded candidacy they can. And let's not get into those "moderate white liberals" and Defund the Pollice. Here is a dose of reality and I do hope any of your followers in lieu of calling me names will tell me where I am wrong: https://medium.com/@barrykaufman/when-it-comes-to-inhumanity-misinformation-and-unaccountability-the-us-and-russia-are-birds-of-a-518694e3b0cd
So let me understand this. Dems are at fault for not doing enough to prevent mass shootings bec a Dem president in his last year in office shut down a govt agency/project?! I missed the part where Dems are trying to get assault rifles, high capacity ammunition removed, better background checks, red flag laws implemented, you know everything the Repubs have an excuse for. This is the most disingenuous comment I’ve seen in quite a long time.
The unbalanced political status in America that has prevailed since the 1980s has done a lot of damage to an entire generation, and its children. The laziness of American voters has been the culprit, of course, and we, the voters, slept through the entire process and allowed Reagan-Bush-Clinton to strip away everything all of Roosevelt's hard-earned legislation gave us after the 1928 Depression, and we ignored Eisenhower's warnings about allowing the Military-Industrial Complex to operate freely as we celebrated, each year, the bravery of our young men, on Memorial Day; the violence of our perpetual wars stripped people everywhere of their homes and safety, so our commerce and industries could replace their domestic systems. We celebrated the Clinton's as they unleashed the entire US banking system and gave us NAFTA, and took all the jobs away south of the Border - and then we watched the impoverished 159 million migrants pour into the US labor market, and our schools, during the 1970-2022, and we were so proud of being so nice. But neither liberals nor conservatives volunteered in our schools as our English Language population hit 50% in many of our classrooms in our cities.
Now comes the US Mid-terms, 2022, and the Democratic Party is in danger of not only losing the Senate, but also the presidency in 2024. And we are still not paying attention to what a broad voter base of independent and common sense voters want for themselves and America. Biden and his emissaries are in Geneva giving the unelected WHO regime powers to over-ride the entire US Constitution any time the pharmaceutical companies need a new profit year. And Biden and both parties are pouring money into the Military Industrial complex in the name of saving the Ukraine from Putin, and inflation is running somewhere north of 8-16%.
Guess waiting for the replacement of five (5) US Supreme Court judges by a Democratic Party that is just as unbalanced as the Republican Party has been since 1980 is s great strategy. Not.
How about focusing on NOT re-electing any of our politicians anywhere, until we have a broad sense of SERVICE and they know they just get ONE TERM, and then they need to go home again? All of them.
Our political system is gyrating back and forth between two equally dysfunctional power groups, and neither party is listening to the rest of us. Both groups are evil.
Mr. Hartman's citation:
If Democrats seize enough political power this year, they must make overturning Citizens United and its evil predecessors their first priority when Congress begins next January. Everything else flows from that corrupt cancer of legalized bribery that five Republicans on the Supreme Court embedded in the heart of American democracy.
The exaggeration about Rebublican intent detracts from the very sound message.
Disagree, for I believe it is impossible to exaggerate, or even fully describe, the democracy-destroying Republican intent.
Hey Thom. Two things. First, thank you for your opinions on how to solve all of the problems in the country.
Second, the rhetoric used to justify your argument is nothing less than hate speech. Claiming that “Republican-supported mass murders of schoolchildren, the GOP attempts to overthrow our government, and their glee to criminalize abortion” is both repulsive and utterly deceitful.
It’s understandable why both sides claim the other is evil but such rhetoric poisons the well of discourse and looks to condemn all those that agree with your strict and demanding ideology. If one doesn’t adhere to your conclusions, they should be condemned and are on the side of evil.
Clearly you can use such toxic straw man arguments. However, if you presented them like this in a junior high school debate class, you might win the support of similarly minded adolescents. But no doubt, you’d lose the debate.
Clearly you haven’t discovered The Lincoln Project. Republicans who believe in democracy, gun control and keeping insanely stupid people out of the Executive branch.
I didn’t know the Jan 6 insurrection was a straw man. What’s a real argument, burning down the Capitol??
The straw man is to claim that Jan. 6 reflects the sentiments of some 80 million people. It’s wildly deceptive and can only result w more hate.
Thoms claim that Republicans support the mass murders of schoolchildren, and that the GOP attempts to overthrow our government, and are happy to criminalize abortion is simply false. It’s a childish way to make an argument. That kind of rhetoric is as poisonous as anything a ridiculous person as Trump has ever said.
No one (Tom or anyone else) claims that Republicans support the mass murders of schoolchildren, but I don't believe it's arguable that the Republicans think that the mass murder of schoolchildren is better for them politically than to favor any and all forms of gun control. When push comes to shove, Republicans leaders have proven that they favor gun rights over innocent schoolchildren's (and adults') right-to-life.
Not exactly sure what you're saying about Thom's claims. He in fact said, and I quote: "Republican-supported mass murders of schoolchildren, the GOP attempts to overthrow our government, and their glee to criminalize abortion.” I'm unsure how to interpret this claim except that he somehow believes that Republicans support the efforts that murder kids. This kind of language is gross hyperbole and intended to make people hate Republicans. This kind of toxic rhetoric does nothing but further divide us. It's wrong when either uses these rhetorical tactics.
I encourage Thom to push for more drastic gun laws. Supporting serious problem solving measures are what healthy adults should do. Harsh disagreements will always be a part of the process. Ridiculous hyperbole, however is coercive and is exactly what 16 year old kids depend on to push there opinions onto others. I realize Thom seriously supports strict gun reforms. Condemning his enemies with sensational and immature rhetoric will not help his cause ... unless part of that cause is empower people to hate each other.
Again, you are not understanding the argument and throwing around terms of straw man and accusing Thom of calling Repubs mass murderers is again disingenuous.
The Republicans decided since Sandy Hook, it is better politically to support the NRA and no gun control rather than improve gun safety ( the new buzz word for control). So in essence, not trying to get assault guns and background checks, in essence accessibility to guns so easy, they are supportive of mass murders in that there is no effort to stop it. Please see other countries such as GB, Australia, etc who quickly and effectively dealt w mass killings.
Thank you all for providing another discussion that seems to be conducted with thought and sincerity, yet there are clear disagreements. That makes this a wonderful opportunity to test a theory I have, and try to find where our opinions diverge by starting at the beginning of everything Constitutional, which is, what do you believe is the purpose of our government? If you would agree that the purpose is to meet the six objectives found in the Preamble, and do it in collaboration with our citizens using best practice-based solutions and Constitutional principles (or something to that effect), then we have a common understanding to discuss how to get better over time. However, if you believe, for e.g., that the purpose of our government’s decision-makers is to serve their corporate masters, then we would have little to discuss because we would be arguing our positions in support of different purposes. In addition, while I’m on the subject of purposes, my opinion is that the primary purpose of the Second Amendment was to ensure that the slave patrols (whether conscripted or not) of the cotton oligarchs were properly armed so they could keep their slaves down on the plantation. Someone who has not yet learned that particular fact would be unlikely to engage in a useful discussion with me. So whether it’s talking about our elected officials or how to come up with the best way to solve our gun problem, we need to first share a common purpose before we can move on. Otherwise, we’ll just keep getting more of the same.
Excellent points all around! Love the way you address the complexity of these very existential matters. And I respect your questions about the Preamble. In a few words I agree w the objectives. All I want to do is to work for a better union and re-establish justice … which I believe will be the only way to insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty for all of us!
Of course the idea of justice gets thrown around so much that not many people stop and actually consider what it is or what it might be. We assume we know but we also know just how hard it’s been to come up with a universal definition of the term.
As for your other question about corporate overlords, unfortunately given the ugly demands of modernity and all its drive for efficiency, our corporatocracy almost seemed inevitable. Sad really because I’ve seen the terrible dehumanizing effects it’s had on people and our country.
How to turn the ship around? May be impossible but I do know if it can only take place when we commit to a rhetoric of reconciliation and cease the consuming desire to marginalize and cancel those with whom we disagree. Tall order but it’s definitely worth figuring out ways to make it happen. Thanks again for your good questions and kind approach. Only the best!