And, if so, what about the hundreds of other Republican politicians and news sites who went along with and echoed Trump’s lies, knowing full well they were not true?
As much as I despise Faux “News” and the slimy propaganda spewing from their hosts, I agree it would be difficult to criminally prosecute sites such as Fox network, Newsmax, etc. for their irresponsible programs. Hopefully the civil cases coming up by Dominion and Smartmatic(not sure spelling is accurate) will hit their pockets and reputation hard. I’m also disgusted by the spineless corporate donors that advertise on those channels and are complicit in the degradation of truth and representation of reality by those entities all for profit. I wonder how they sleep at night justifying their support of propaganda against the majority of Americans. I’m hoping the families of poll workers, capital police officers, and any other entities affected by the damage from Jan6 would pile on board for a massive class action suit which would send a message to media giants like Murdoch/ Sinclair that they are not above accountability but unfortunately I don’t see that happening.
After reading Thom's very well-argued Daily Take with all its nuanced issues, we would need an exceptional effort from DOJ to deliver justice in the case of Fox propagandists vs our citizens' general welfare. The only way I can see an indictment (much less a successful prosecution) is if something like the crime-fraud exception could be applied to members of the press much like the attorneys who conspire with Trump to commit very serious crimes. I get that the press needs extra protection because of what it does, but a digital history of their evil grift should be enough to drill down and prove their intent.
So, again we see an articulate, intelligent argument that indicates the slippery slope of reporting contrived lies and our instincts to retaliate against free speech .
Im going to say my first thought is to prosecute , no doubt, and out of a reactive need to expose them as the liars they are and the damage done by same.
However the historical references and differences provided regarding President Adams and Thomas Jefferson were illuminating in a few different ways.
Its of great interest to me that Republicans still follow the book of “ non reality and pretense”
set up by their rooted precursors.
As well the ‘Democrats’ at the time , were also still wanting to expose these injustices at all costs.
How like our ancestors are we now?
The “ Adams Family”, ( I’m including Abigail) seem to me pretentious , shallow and punitive to those that had the audacity to oppose them .
Familiar? Yes.
Jeffersons supporters seemed more reasonable and some what under reactive.
Its true, Democrats are nicer people.
Of interest as well is the
desire to expose and eliminate people who offend us.
I don’t wish to minimize the negative impact of constant lying on air and the poison it engenders.
It has caused terrible rifts and dysfunction across our country.
It has hurt people and killed some .
If I knew the one answer to this quandary, i would have mentioned it by now .
Fear not, DoJ will not intervene because it is still Trumps DOJ.
Merrick Garland is a conservative that was svetted by the arch right winger Orrin Hatch R UT to Obama, and served 10 times as moderator for the Federalist Society.
Trump, before walking out of the office signed EO 13957, which created a special category of civil servants, Schedule F, which converted political appointees into, impossible to fire, civil servants and then reclassified the jobs of civil servants whom they would displace into at will.
This EO would have been a perfect tool for Biden to use to replace the damage done by Trump, but Biden's first acct was to sign EO 14005 which revoked Trumps EO, and thus he sanctioned Trumps act of remaking the DOJ in Trump's image. And that is why no Congress critter will be indictded, why no Trump cabinet member, appointee, advisor, secret service will be indicted, and why the only convictions were of pawns who attacked the Capitol and even those were mostly slaps on the wrist except for a handful of the most grievous and even those did not receive the 20 year sentence they should have for sedition. Every person who attacked the Capitol should have been tried for Sedition,iincluding the ring leadrs in Congress, especially the woman who gave the attacckers the go signal fom her seat i the chamber. Lauren Boebert.
When the first objection was raised at the counting of the electoral votes (Arizona) Boebert tweeted 1776, this was the go signal. It was shown at the time on the TV,but has since been either ignored or scrubbed. Certainly the J6 committee didn't do it's job, becuase Liz Cheney steeredit away from perps in the house and administration to Trump, and the committee allowed her to get away with it.
Thanks Thom. This is a thorny issue. I read your report this morning and thinking how the First Amendment could be 'clarified' to counter the obvious threat to democracy. Then I read today's WAPO opinion piece about how Fox (and others) were weaponizing the Ohio train wreck.
The fascists (yes, I call these attacks on democracy fascistic), are at this every day. Every day.
So, I'm thinking - what is the core issue? Their words? Nah, if spoken on a soapbox the words would have no/minimal impact. If it was a minister preaching those words within the confines of the church building (or tent) there would also be no/minimal impact. If it was a book spewing lies, it would still have minimal impact (more than the street corner but you get the point). I'll even say 'Mein Kamph' and 'Communist Manisfesto' had minimal impact.
Of all the physical forms of speaking or transmitting the words, It is the broadcasting of the words using the newer technologies which creates the impact.
The First Amendment never envisioned public radio nor TV nor cable nor 'the Internet'. This (to me) is the failure. We already have the concept that specific broadcast media has public responsibilities. This used to be recognized by the 'Fairness Doctrine' when using public airwaves (traditional radio/tv). The FCC even has standards but lacks any effective enforcement plus the Internet is ignored.
My suggestion is to avoid debate over the words themselves but how broadcast media has public responsibilities. Strengthen the FCC to cover all of the new broadcast media and to provide effective enforcement of violations.
That and 2 cents will get you a cup of coffee at my house;)
I despise Fox Propaganda and everything they stand for, which is not news, not even entertainment. Unless it’s entertainment of a sort that keeps their viewers angry and afraid, dumbed down so they won’t or can’t think for themselves anymore. Which was Ayres entire point of creating this vile institution.
However, as much as I’d love to see Fox and all it’s executives and most popular and toxic on-air scuzz pay for the lies they spew, by being charged, convicted and banned from public speaking ever again, I think the Justice Department has quite enough on its hands at the moment.
The most important person to hold accountable for January 6th, and the multitude of other reprehensible acts, is Trump himself. At least for now.
Going after Fox Propaganda, means you have to go after Newsmax, OAN, Breitbart, every right wing AM radio station, etc. They all spewed the same lies, all knowing they were utter bullshite. And when you attack every right wing “news” organization, you’re really going to have a rabid base of republicans who claim the Justice Department has been weaponized by the Biden Admin.
It isn’t true. And we know that, and deep down, they know that. But it won’t stop them from unleashing all of their bile against Biden over it. And I’m sick enough watching the House Republicans now, literally nauseous from anger and frustration, at the daily nonsense. Can you imagine the bellowing of Marjorie Taylor Greene et al, were JusDep to take this on?
Could there even be an argument that Fox and their ilk are all exempt from freedom of the press, because they aren’t really press? They aren’t journalists, investigating a story then airing their findings. They merely take actual news coverage from real press, and twist and omit until it no longer resembles the original content, then add their phony outrage and relevant dog whistles to rile up the base.
What I really want is Fox Propaganda and the like, gone; off the air, with real news in their place. But I’m guessing that ain’t happening any time soon. Because number one: the Republican base doesn’t want real news, as evidenced by their exodus to OAN and Newsmax during the five minutes Fox actually aired real, true news that Biden had won the presidential election and he was the president-elect. They don’t want reality. They feed off the lies. How the hell do you even begin to have an intervention and ween them off?
I’d argue family members of those lost to Fox Propaganda et al would argue that you can’t.
It is the total absence of consequences for behavior, both unethical, criminal and seditious-- that has brought us to this moment.
Not a single republican will stand up and condemn the most outrageous behavior. Santos could never have been a cabinet let alone elected in the past, when ethical, responsible behavior was the rule for government and journalists !
Fox is NOT a news network. It is an entertainment network. Profit driven, even when they shout ‘fire in a theater. ‘
The 'Q' in Qanon actually comes from a lost Gospel called 'Q.' Q the Gospel, is supposed to recite sayings and teachings of Jesus in his true words. The Canonical Gospels of Matthew, Mark and a bit of Luke allegedly contain information about and sayings and teachings of Jesus, gleaned from 'Q.' So here we are; with Qanon spouting conspiracy theories about evil politicians, torturing children. How does that happen? Jesus said; "Let the children come to me, whoever acts like these children (a/k/a the least of these) inherits the Kingdom (or words to that effect)." He goes on to say that it would be better to have a giant millstone tied around your neck and to be thrown into the sea than to cause the children to sin. Not just a 'millstone' by the way, but a 'giant millstone.' So, some nut cases take the Gospel of 'Q' and turn it into a conspiracy theory that just won't die. Are they delusional? Yes. Is it a crime? Did the Qanon people have specific intent to incite their fellow nut case to go into a pizza parlor, intending to shoot it up? Probably not. Proving specific intent in any of these cases is extremely difficult. Did Tucker Carlson or Sean Hannity specifically intend to incite a riot/insurrection? Nah, their motive is always strictly financial.
Thank you, Thom, for sharing the history of what endangered our early struggle with discovering the truth about what presidents and other politicians are doing and contriving. [I'm so glad I read this report even though I do not have time to read everything.] I'd heard and read bits and pieces of the early Congressional violence, and we've all seen beautiful and romanticized versions of the lives and service of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, but you bring home the essence of their conflict...that is so pertinent today. Why should we not pursue the "criminal law" in regard to Fox and spinoffs with the need for more evidence when our country's integrity is at stake? Seems worth it to me! I like the attitude of "Lyon, who had served in the Continental Army during the Revolutionary War, [and] was led through the town of Vergennes, Vermont in shackles. He ran for re-election from his 12x16-foot Vergennes jail cell and handily won his seat."
A little less than 250 years ago, Jefferson gave this country the strategy for preserving democracy without compromising the First Amendment, as Hartmann pointed out. However, influential progressive leaders and billionaires failed even to attempt seriously to penetrate the airways in the Red States to spread the legal truth and to set the record straight. Instead, these powers allow Fox news to dominate these airways unabated and without competition. Why? There are quite a few progressive news giants making millions of dollars annually. But have they combined their financial resources to launch a counter-attack against the DEADLY Fox KILLING machine? Mine you, the Fox contingency has successfully united some of the elements of the opposing fringes of far-right and far-left in one movement, one stand for the sole/purpose of enriching their bank accounts.
The Dominion Court Case have exposed Fox news for what they indeed are: a death "news" agency with growing ties to Putin and the desire to have more innocent Americans and their children killed by other Americans. Garland best wake up before his grand children are saluting the "United Nazi of America" instead of the United States of America! They first came for Native Americans, then African and Brown people, and now they are coming after people who look just like them!
Hate media is responsible for the growth of autocracy in this country with its outright evangelical style of lying, which appeals to most right wing leaning people and a few independents. We saw that when driving across America just prior to Bush's invasion of Iraq. No real news available in print or radio in all rural areas. Every place we stopped for gas, servicing our vehicle, etc. had Limbaugh blaring his disgusting preaching. One mechanic was totally shocked when I told him that actually, Hillary was a really good Senator, as he dissed her when seeing our NY plates.
I’m still waiting for indictments for the politicians leading the attempts to overturn the election as well as for incitement of the insurrection on Jan 6, not just the foot soldiers. It seems like a very long shot to bring criminal charges against Fox based upon what I’ve seen from the DOJ to this point, not that there’s not a reasonable basis for doing so as pointed out by Mr Kirshner. I share your concerns about keeping our First Amendment free speech rights truly free because I sometimes worry about what would happen if another authoritarian comes into the White House. Any and all comments I have made on these Substacks I subscribe to will be used against me in my own sedition trial!
Wow Thom. Another fantastic article filled with history and knowledge that I had "no clue" about. I always learn so much reading The Hartmann Report. If only you could clone yourself and run for President! Thanks again! Sandi
We need to bring back the fairness doctrine or at least add a warning label to Fox and Newsmax. Maybe something like "warning this is a propaganda entertainment show ". We need warnings on food labels, hot coffee and poisons. Fox is poisoning the brains of uneducated people in this country. They must be protected from themselves and Fox.
As much as I despise Faux “News” and the slimy propaganda spewing from their hosts, I agree it would be difficult to criminally prosecute sites such as Fox network, Newsmax, etc. for their irresponsible programs. Hopefully the civil cases coming up by Dominion and Smartmatic(not sure spelling is accurate) will hit their pockets and reputation hard. I’m also disgusted by the spineless corporate donors that advertise on those channels and are complicit in the degradation of truth and representation of reality by those entities all for profit. I wonder how they sleep at night justifying their support of propaganda against the majority of Americans. I’m hoping the families of poll workers, capital police officers, and any other entities affected by the damage from Jan6 would pile on board for a massive class action suit which would send a message to media giants like Murdoch/ Sinclair that they are not above accountability but unfortunately I don’t see that happening.
After reading Thom's very well-argued Daily Take with all its nuanced issues, we would need an exceptional effort from DOJ to deliver justice in the case of Fox propagandists vs our citizens' general welfare. The only way I can see an indictment (much less a successful prosecution) is if something like the crime-fraud exception could be applied to members of the press much like the attorneys who conspire with Trump to commit very serious crimes. I get that the press needs extra protection because of what it does, but a digital history of their evil grift should be enough to drill down and prove their intent.
So, again we see an articulate, intelligent argument that indicates the slippery slope of reporting contrived lies and our instincts to retaliate against free speech .
Im going to say my first thought is to prosecute , no doubt, and out of a reactive need to expose them as the liars they are and the damage done by same.
However the historical references and differences provided regarding President Adams and Thomas Jefferson were illuminating in a few different ways.
Its of great interest to me that Republicans still follow the book of “ non reality and pretense”
set up by their rooted precursors.
As well the ‘Democrats’ at the time , were also still wanting to expose these injustices at all costs.
How like our ancestors are we now?
The “ Adams Family”, ( I’m including Abigail) seem to me pretentious , shallow and punitive to those that had the audacity to oppose them .
Familiar? Yes.
Jeffersons supporters seemed more reasonable and some what under reactive.
Its true, Democrats are nicer people.
Of interest as well is the
desire to expose and eliminate people who offend us.
I don’t wish to minimize the negative impact of constant lying on air and the poison it engenders.
It has caused terrible rifts and dysfunction across our country.
It has hurt people and killed some .
If I knew the one answer to this quandary, i would have mentioned it by now .
Fear not, DoJ will not intervene because it is still Trumps DOJ.
Merrick Garland is a conservative that was svetted by the arch right winger Orrin Hatch R UT to Obama, and served 10 times as moderator for the Federalist Society.
Trump, before walking out of the office signed EO 13957, which created a special category of civil servants, Schedule F, which converted political appointees into, impossible to fire, civil servants and then reclassified the jobs of civil servants whom they would displace into at will.
This EO would have been a perfect tool for Biden to use to replace the damage done by Trump, but Biden's first acct was to sign EO 14005 which revoked Trumps EO, and thus he sanctioned Trumps act of remaking the DOJ in Trump's image. And that is why no Congress critter will be indictded, why no Trump cabinet member, appointee, advisor, secret service will be indicted, and why the only convictions were of pawns who attacked the Capitol and even those were mostly slaps on the wrist except for a handful of the most grievous and even those did not receive the 20 year sentence they should have for sedition. Every person who attacked the Capitol should have been tried for Sedition,iincluding the ring leadrs in Congress, especially the woman who gave the attacckers the go signal fom her seat i the chamber. Lauren Boebert.
When the first objection was raised at the counting of the electoral votes (Arizona) Boebert tweeted 1776, this was the go signal. It was shown at the time on the TV,but has since been either ignored or scrubbed. Certainly the J6 committee didn't do it's job, becuase Liz Cheney steeredit away from perps in the house and administration to Trump, and the committee allowed her to get away with it.
Thanks Thom. This is a thorny issue. I read your report this morning and thinking how the First Amendment could be 'clarified' to counter the obvious threat to democracy. Then I read today's WAPO opinion piece about how Fox (and others) were weaponizing the Ohio train wreck.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/02/21/east-palestine-train-derailment-tucker-carlson-jd-vance-fox-news/
The fascists (yes, I call these attacks on democracy fascistic), are at this every day. Every day.
So, I'm thinking - what is the core issue? Their words? Nah, if spoken on a soapbox the words would have no/minimal impact. If it was a minister preaching those words within the confines of the church building (or tent) there would also be no/minimal impact. If it was a book spewing lies, it would still have minimal impact (more than the street corner but you get the point). I'll even say 'Mein Kamph' and 'Communist Manisfesto' had minimal impact.
Of all the physical forms of speaking or transmitting the words, It is the broadcasting of the words using the newer technologies which creates the impact.
The First Amendment never envisioned public radio nor TV nor cable nor 'the Internet'. This (to me) is the failure. We already have the concept that specific broadcast media has public responsibilities. This used to be recognized by the 'Fairness Doctrine' when using public airwaves (traditional radio/tv). The FCC even has standards but lacks any effective enforcement plus the Internet is ignored.
My suggestion is to avoid debate over the words themselves but how broadcast media has public responsibilities. Strengthen the FCC to cover all of the new broadcast media and to provide effective enforcement of violations.
That and 2 cents will get you a cup of coffee at my house;)
I despise Fox Propaganda and everything they stand for, which is not news, not even entertainment. Unless it’s entertainment of a sort that keeps their viewers angry and afraid, dumbed down so they won’t or can’t think for themselves anymore. Which was Ayres entire point of creating this vile institution.
However, as much as I’d love to see Fox and all it’s executives and most popular and toxic on-air scuzz pay for the lies they spew, by being charged, convicted and banned from public speaking ever again, I think the Justice Department has quite enough on its hands at the moment.
The most important person to hold accountable for January 6th, and the multitude of other reprehensible acts, is Trump himself. At least for now.
Going after Fox Propaganda, means you have to go after Newsmax, OAN, Breitbart, every right wing AM radio station, etc. They all spewed the same lies, all knowing they were utter bullshite. And when you attack every right wing “news” organization, you’re really going to have a rabid base of republicans who claim the Justice Department has been weaponized by the Biden Admin.
It isn’t true. And we know that, and deep down, they know that. But it won’t stop them from unleashing all of their bile against Biden over it. And I’m sick enough watching the House Republicans now, literally nauseous from anger and frustration, at the daily nonsense. Can you imagine the bellowing of Marjorie Taylor Greene et al, were JusDep to take this on?
Could there even be an argument that Fox and their ilk are all exempt from freedom of the press, because they aren’t really press? They aren’t journalists, investigating a story then airing their findings. They merely take actual news coverage from real press, and twist and omit until it no longer resembles the original content, then add their phony outrage and relevant dog whistles to rile up the base.
What I really want is Fox Propaganda and the like, gone; off the air, with real news in their place. But I’m guessing that ain’t happening any time soon. Because number one: the Republican base doesn’t want real news, as evidenced by their exodus to OAN and Newsmax during the five minutes Fox actually aired real, true news that Biden had won the presidential election and he was the president-elect. They don’t want reality. They feed off the lies. How the hell do you even begin to have an intervention and ween them off?
I’d argue family members of those lost to Fox Propaganda et al would argue that you can’t.
It is the total absence of consequences for behavior, both unethical, criminal and seditious-- that has brought us to this moment.
Not a single republican will stand up and condemn the most outrageous behavior. Santos could never have been a cabinet let alone elected in the past, when ethical, responsible behavior was the rule for government and journalists !
Fox is NOT a news network. It is an entertainment network. Profit driven, even when they shout ‘fire in a theater. ‘
They have no shame.
The 'Q' in Qanon actually comes from a lost Gospel called 'Q.' Q the Gospel, is supposed to recite sayings and teachings of Jesus in his true words. The Canonical Gospels of Matthew, Mark and a bit of Luke allegedly contain information about and sayings and teachings of Jesus, gleaned from 'Q.' So here we are; with Qanon spouting conspiracy theories about evil politicians, torturing children. How does that happen? Jesus said; "Let the children come to me, whoever acts like these children (a/k/a the least of these) inherits the Kingdom (or words to that effect)." He goes on to say that it would be better to have a giant millstone tied around your neck and to be thrown into the sea than to cause the children to sin. Not just a 'millstone' by the way, but a 'giant millstone.' So, some nut cases take the Gospel of 'Q' and turn it into a conspiracy theory that just won't die. Are they delusional? Yes. Is it a crime? Did the Qanon people have specific intent to incite their fellow nut case to go into a pizza parlor, intending to shoot it up? Probably not. Proving specific intent in any of these cases is extremely difficult. Did Tucker Carlson or Sean Hannity specifically intend to incite a riot/insurrection? Nah, their motive is always strictly financial.
Y E S
Thank you, Thom, for sharing the history of what endangered our early struggle with discovering the truth about what presidents and other politicians are doing and contriving. [I'm so glad I read this report even though I do not have time to read everything.] I'd heard and read bits and pieces of the early Congressional violence, and we've all seen beautiful and romanticized versions of the lives and service of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, but you bring home the essence of their conflict...that is so pertinent today. Why should we not pursue the "criminal law" in regard to Fox and spinoffs with the need for more evidence when our country's integrity is at stake? Seems worth it to me! I like the attitude of "Lyon, who had served in the Continental Army during the Revolutionary War, [and] was led through the town of Vergennes, Vermont in shackles. He ran for re-election from his 12x16-foot Vergennes jail cell and handily won his seat."
A little less than 250 years ago, Jefferson gave this country the strategy for preserving democracy without compromising the First Amendment, as Hartmann pointed out. However, influential progressive leaders and billionaires failed even to attempt seriously to penetrate the airways in the Red States to spread the legal truth and to set the record straight. Instead, these powers allow Fox news to dominate these airways unabated and without competition. Why? There are quite a few progressive news giants making millions of dollars annually. But have they combined their financial resources to launch a counter-attack against the DEADLY Fox KILLING machine? Mine you, the Fox contingency has successfully united some of the elements of the opposing fringes of far-right and far-left in one movement, one stand for the sole/purpose of enriching their bank accounts.
The Dominion Court Case have exposed Fox news for what they indeed are: a death "news" agency with growing ties to Putin and the desire to have more innocent Americans and their children killed by other Americans. Garland best wake up before his grand children are saluting the "United Nazi of America" instead of the United States of America! They first came for Native Americans, then African and Brown people, and now they are coming after people who look just like them!
Hate media is responsible for the growth of autocracy in this country with its outright evangelical style of lying, which appeals to most right wing leaning people and a few independents. We saw that when driving across America just prior to Bush's invasion of Iraq. No real news available in print or radio in all rural areas. Every place we stopped for gas, servicing our vehicle, etc. had Limbaugh blaring his disgusting preaching. One mechanic was totally shocked when I told him that actually, Hillary was a really good Senator, as he dissed her when seeing our NY plates.
Likely not as they cannot be shown to have caused the riots. Let's boycott them, that would hurt!
I’m still waiting for indictments for the politicians leading the attempts to overturn the election as well as for incitement of the insurrection on Jan 6, not just the foot soldiers. It seems like a very long shot to bring criminal charges against Fox based upon what I’ve seen from the DOJ to this point, not that there’s not a reasonable basis for doing so as pointed out by Mr Kirshner. I share your concerns about keeping our First Amendment free speech rights truly free because I sometimes worry about what would happen if another authoritarian comes into the White House. Any and all comments I have made on these Substacks I subscribe to will be used against me in my own sedition trial!
Wow Thom. Another fantastic article filled with history and knowledge that I had "no clue" about. I always learn so much reading The Hartmann Report. If only you could clone yourself and run for President! Thanks again! Sandi
We need to bring back the fairness doctrine or at least add a warning label to Fox and Newsmax. Maybe something like "warning this is a propaganda entertainment show ". We need warnings on food labels, hot coffee and poisons. Fox is poisoning the brains of uneducated people in this country. They must be protected from themselves and Fox.