The bottom line here is that Trump and his co-conspirators were not only willing but planning to recreate Reagan’s and Nixon’s Kent State slaughter on a nationwide basis...
At U of I, Champaign-Urbana, I took a whole class on the Kent State massacre taught by a professor who was there and wrote a book about it. The Guardsmen were young kids, from the area, also known as 'townies' who had a bit of a resentment against the more privileged students. The first Guardsman who shot is believed to have just... done it. There wasn't an order or maybe there was from a low level lieutenant who was his immediate superior - no one really knows. When the first shot rang out, others followed immediately. Many of the Guardsmen testified that they thought the shot came from the protestors. Anyhow, it was a FUBAR. Fast forward, this will happen again as we continue to rile up our youth (and older people too) who are brain washed by the fear-mongering and hate spewed by ... everyone. I was listening to an AA Speaker this morning who got sober under infamous, national news reported circumstances. He told a counselor once, when still drinking that, "I'd rather Hate than Hurt.' I think that says it all; so many would rather hate.
Kent State was a bloodbath that never should have happened. The students weren’t armed, and some of those killed were going to class. There was another shooting in 1970 at Jackson State in Mississippi, a HBCU and two students were killed there.
Another thing with Kent State was that people spread nasty and false rumors about the students protesting and those who were injured and killed. It’s rather like how the wingnut media sphere functions now.
I was listening to a call in talk radio show in Cleveland then. A man called in and said if his daughter was protesting the war he would want her killed. There was 30 seconds of dead air and the host came back on. He said that was the most horrible thing he ever heard and he sounded emotional.
That is a horrible thing for a parent to say. Sandy Scheuer was killed while walking to class, and Allison Krause was killed for protesting. I doubt their parents agreed with this.
I can imagine that you were told just that. If only it were that 'sexy'. My professor stated that the Guardsmen were in fact from the Ohio National Guard and some were local. Many were 18, 19 years old. The 'locals' 'Townies' had a fear of the SDS and some of the more militant student organizations. The fear was not legitimate but years of underlying resentments towards the 'privileged' college kids and blue collar working class did fuel the situation. Keep in mind that the college students escaped the draft; the town saw them as draft dodgers. Also, some of the Guardsmen had either been to Vietnam, might have to go and/or had family members who were there. I'm not sure but, I recall that one of the Guardsmen had a brother who was killed in Vietnam. I'll look for the book as see if I can find it.
You didn't read or absorb Robert Webers post. He said "We were told #Nixon conjured willing guardsman from a southern state to head north of "Yankee Land"
He did not say that it was guardsman from southern states that shot the students.
About Chuck Grassley-please point me toward more information regarding what he thinks the Democrats did in 2004. I’m an Iowan and want to know if there is any truth in his comments to the Iowa Capitol Dispatch.
I’m not from Iowa, but I’m also curious as to exactly how or why Grassley thought Pence wasn’t going to be there? Why did he think that? Where did he get that notion? His words do not seem to indicate that he was there just as a formality but that he actually thought he would take over because Pence wasn’t expected to be there. I find his choice of words very curious.
Ms. Birch, remember the "hanging Chads" in Florida? The dems wanted to keep counting ballots; but the Supreme Court stopped it and handed the Presidential election, barely, to Baby Bush. Is that possibly what that creepy Grassley was talking about?
P.S. I went to grad school at ISU many years ago. I loved Ioway and Iowayans. What has happened there?
During an exchange with reporters on Tuesday, Grassley was asked how he plans to vote.
“Well, first of all, I will be — if the Vice President isn’t there and we don’t expect him to be there, I will be presiding over the Senate,” according to a transcript of his remarks sent by a spokesperson.
Grassley serves as the president pro tempore of the Senate and will preside over any portion of the debate that Pence does not attend. But Grassley expects Pence to be present on Wednesday, according to his spokesperson.
So tell us why do you doubt this. I noticed that you received 18 up votes, apparently by people who did not understand your subtext.
Please pardon me if I take a slightly overblown view of the Kent State shootings which killed several young students. It was an infamy, no doubt, I agree. How many of us remember the several Black college students who were killed in a similar manner at Jackson State College in Mississippi on May 15, 1970?
And how many remember the riots in Detroit July 1967 when Forty three people were killed "officially," gunned down by police, Michigan National Guardsmen and soldiers of the United States infantry? The overwhelming majority of the dead, Black.
At four am on Sunday morning July 23, 1967 the White Detroit Police department raided a blind pig (an after hours, unlicensed social club serving booze) on Twelfth Street in the heart of what White Suburban citizens called the "Negro Ghetto." Eighty two people were arrested; two of them recently returned Decorated Vietnam-War-Heroes. This thoughtless, insensitive act of police-bullying set off a spontaneously explosive riot which quickly spread throughout the huge city of Detroit.
The Michigan Governor, Republican George Romney was reluctant to declare a "state of emergency" as Democratic President Lyndon Johnson requested. A "state of emergency" would have given Johnson the excuse to activate the Insurrection Act of 1807 and send armed U.S. soldiers into my home town. The place where I grew to manhood, graduated high school, earned a Bachelor's degree and married the most irresistible woman I have known these last sixty seven years. We were both young social workers in the city at that time.
Romney finally did declare an emergency and, subsequently I looked up from my backyard into the industrially polluted air on Detroit's East side near the Infamous PlayBoy Club and saw something I never dreamed I would see in the City I loved: twenty two military attack helicopters buzzed over me on their way to East Kercheval Street where they disgorged soldiers of the 101st and 82nd Air-born Divisions. As they flew over the soldiers in those Helicopters were peering down pointing automatic rifles at me. I felt like a Vietnamese peasant: Instant, overwhelming fear. Within minutes I could hear the distant popping of gunfire as American soldiers killed some of my fellow citizens on East Kercheval. I jumped into my little English Anglia and drove in the direction of the shooting intending to witness what was being done to my city by my own national military. However, I was unable to drive into the killing zone because I was turned back by Michigan State Police officers who had blocked off all roads leading into the area.
Within days the island in the middle of the Detroit River, Belle Isle, down the street from my house was packed with hundreds, perhaps thousands of young Black men; incarcerated in a make-shift concentration camp.
Presently, I visited former colleagues with whom I had previously worked at Harper Hospital when I was working my way through college. They told me the large morgue at Harper was overflowing with dead bodies. They were parking them in hallways on gurneys outside of the morgue. The "official" dead-body count by the government authorities was forty three after the riot was over. But I have never believed that number because I had worked for months in Harper"s Central Supply Department and Knew how huge that morgue was; having wheeled many corpses into it myself before the riot occurred.
I understand why so many Americans doubt the veracity of their government. Edward Snowden is correct: The first instinct of those in power--in all governments--is to dissemble when the going gets tough; and they always say they are acting in "our" best interests. Us, citizens. What they are really doing is hanging on to power.
I could go on like this for thousands of words. But let me relate just one more example of how truth is the second victim when the killing starts.
I was sharing a bottle of cheap wine in the apartment of an old friend from school days when the building began to vibrate in a strange oscillatory fashion. Next we heard a low-pitched rumbling sound from the street several stories below. We stuck our heads out a window and saw in the street an olive-green-colored tank cranking its way down the middle of the avenue. A young soldier lifted his head up out of the tank and yelled at us with a bullhorn to "get away from the window or I will shoot!" We pulled back in but could still see out into the street below. The machine gun on the tank was firing rounds up at the roof of the Ford Hospital. We could see the slugs easily as they
swiftly rose up at an acute angle because they were "tracers" which glow brightly creating long, straight, lines in the air which looked like neon lights stretched out several hundred yards into the sky.
The next day T.V. News reported that the tank was firing at snipers on the Ford-Hospital roof. Snipers, they claimed, were firing down at the tank and the driver said he could hear bullets "plinking" off the steel armor plating.
However a subsequent investigation weeks later revealed there was another tank many blocks distant on the opposite side of Ford Hospital, also firing at snipers on the hospital's roof. It was eventually suggested that the two tanks, many blocks apart and not visible to each other were lofting rounds up, over the building and those slugs were in all likelihood arcing down on the other side of the building "plinking" off the other tank. Snipers were never found. Let me repeat...never found. Yet, to this day there are those who claim snipers were firing from high up on roofs. This error in perception has never been "officially" corrected.
Please take Thom Hartman seriously when he talks about the implications of invoking the Insurrection Act. Those riots in 1967, a kind which could spread across this country, were at that time, the greatest civil insurrection in America except for the War Between The States. If something like that happens again, there could be prodigious, obscene bloodletting; possibly worse than Detroit all those years ago. Do not make the mistake of thinking this was a "race riot!" It was not. There were many whites in the streets burning and looting along with their Black Brothers. This was a Poor People's Riot. And Black People always get the worst end of the stick.
Thanks for this, it's a very good and interesting contribution here and certainly shows how "black history" is underappreciated. Although that doesn't necessary translate into Kent state being "overblown" - the importance of Jackson and Detroit being legitimate, the Kent state events certainly grabbed intense attention, resulted in massive student protests across the country, and (I think) helped turn the tide of public opinion about the war.
Mr. S. I think what "helped turn the tide of public opinion about the war" was 50,000 American mothers seeing their sons come home in black plastic body bags. Don't you?
More complicated than that. Body counts were notoriously bad. Americans were unaware of 1968 Mai lai massacre until late 1969. Americans were told for years it needed to take certain losses because the tide was turning or it would soon turn. So although it was 1967 when less than a majority first supported our "conducting of" the war, still, less than 20 percent were polled as supporting the withdrawal of troops. Nixon pledged to end the war even as a candidate in 1968 but it was always a matter of when. It didn't happen for 5 more years, which years included increased tv media coverage of actual war developments and casualties, news of escalating casualties, the massacre at Mai lai, the results of 1968 tet offensive, Woodstock in 1969, Kent state in 1970. Students had been protesting widely since 1967 and much media / public opinion was to criticize and demonize those who protested. On one (very publicly visible) large wall of my high school, someone spray painted "the footprint of the American chicken" next to a large peace sign, and this was in the early 70s. Students were attacked and vilified for many years for protesting the war or for refusing to come home in those body bags.
Also interesting to note that before 1971, 18-20 year olds generally were ineligible to vote....
The wiki summary of 26th amendment mentions the Oregon v. Mitchell supreme court case, which is one i view as very telling and important for analyzing recent voting rights cases.
Wikipedia:
"Determined to get around inaction on the issue, congressional allies included a provision for the 18-year-old vote in a 1970 bill that extended the Voting Rights Act. The Supreme Court subsequently held in the case of Oregon v. Mitchell that Congress could not lower the voting age for state and local elections. Recognizing the confusion and costs that would be involved in maintaining separate voting rolls and elections for federal and state contests, Congress quickly proposed and the states ratified the Twenty-sixth Amendment."
Marc I saw that you made a comment accusing me of anti semitism.
Get this through your thick head, I really don't care what you are anyone else thinks of me, I know who I am,and what I stand for and won't tolerate. And I won't tolerate tropes like yours. Hurl a charge that is suppose to intimidate and cower someone. Get a grip it doesn't work on me, nor does attempts to slander me with the racist trope.
No person, no group, no religion is beyond criticism and inspection. Because no one, no group, no religion or ethnic identity is faultless, each has their miscreants and bad actors.
So me posting a fact, from a Jewish organization yet, that Putin and Trump were recognized as Power Jews (or helping Jews) is evidence of anti semitism.
Even Jews like Noam Chmsky and Norman Finklestein author of the Holocaust Industry, are called antismites, and you toss around some persons all too sensitive bias as gospel with a link.
I don't see Christians or Muslims tossing around slurs and tropes when I point out unpleasant facts about Christianity and Islam (both of which I have studied, in depth, having done something that most have never done, read and studied their sacred scriptures, even the Tenach.
Think of me as you wish, but you are wasting your time throwing at me, slurs and tropes.
Let me tell you this, their is nothing special about Jews, Muslims and Christians, nor Hindus except they all share one feature, bias and bigotry. Apparently there are a lot of Jews in Israel and America who share my POV. What I totally disdain and fear is using people, and ethnicities or "races" as scapegoats, despite that no one , no group are vestal virgins.
And yes there are asshole atheists, I've met a few, even ones who think that women who have an abortion are guilty of murder.
I'm 84 and noticed that if you are too effusive about Jews, you are an anti semite, if you are critical you are an anti semite, and what is curious about that slander is that most Jews (Ashkenazi) are not semites, where as Arabs are. So my distaste and critique of Islamic theology, fatwa's and practices make me an anti semite, and the tension between Israel and the Arabs is nothing more than an internecine quarrel, just like that stupidy that goes on in the Balkans between the descendants of Bogomil Christians (Muslim Bosnians), Roman Catholic Croats and Serbian Greek Orthodox, all of the wasted blood, pain, anguish, rape and torture between three groups of Slavs..over what.. ethnic identy born out of religion.
It is an insane world. But thanks to global warming it will all come to an end, much sooner than expected.
So stop wasting your time, with your all too sensitive antenna, looking anywhere and everywhere for affront.
I got the same message for all minorities, focus on the real threats and cease alienating people and making enemies.
It would be a good start to arrest the 20 House Fwee-dumb Caucus members, starting with "General" (in the PA National Guard) Scott Perry, for their treason.
I am following this, with some brilliant friends who are retired educators and attorneys!
Luttig and Tribe, and the Task Force of top legal minds that they have organized is opening this conversation in the public domain, because in the Political THEATER — is where our citizens get all their information, lacking any education that would provide the evidence and FACTS of the reality of what this criminal ex-president has done !
Tv and the internet gave the liar-in -chief a megaphone— which he used with impunity— until now — when the ROL (Rule of LAW) in FEDERAL Court is about to show this mobster, what the justices department can do.
The 14th amendment is Real
But the process where each state could hold him accountable has never been spelled out.
And that , Robert, is the fly in the ointment of Constitutional laws
I remember watching the news and seeing the students being gunned down at Kent state! I was only 11 and I was sickened that our government would do that to its citizens!
Burning down the cities would cost the rich autocrats money. Delaying Trump's trial then allowing him to pardon himself after getting elected, would be much more cost-effective for the autocrats. Biden can do a number of things to lose the election. From what I've seen so far with classified information and not prosecuting about 300 GOP, it would not surprise me if he did. The left has not been in charge of the Democratic party for over 40 years yet gets the blame for what the Reagan democrats and the obstructing Republicans have done. I suggest all rational people get off the grid as much as possible, it will probably collapse soon anyway from global warming, and prepared to defend yourselves.
Thanks, by the way that link to 18 USC mentions the canal zone. I spent three years in Panama and there were a large number of people call Zonians, born in the Zone, most of Panamanian US ancestry, that were U.S. Citizens. To keep their status they needed a permanent residence in ConUS, and had to return to the US every five years.
America rarely asks itself why it is always Republicans who break the laws and who are so willing to use violence against the very citizens they vowed to protect and defend.
Back when Clinton took office, I was transferred to Oklahoma City to manage a new FAA lab that conducted training and organizational R&D. Part of the deal for loaning me was that we would also support JCS, and the White House.
Oklahoma was my first exposure to a part of America that did not enforce (or even see the point in) the separation of Church and state. It seemed that most Okies tended to conflate sin with crime. Neighbors and some of my staff would tell me that their pastor told them who to vote for and openly condemned liberal politicians as evil sinners from the pulpit on Sunday. On several occasions, I even heard "Have your been saved?" as a pick-up line in bars.
Even though I completed my graduate studies and post doc in Fort Worth Texas, I was shocked to hear parents telling their children to "Stop bein' so hateful!" just for crying when a parent took a candy bar out of their hand at the grocery store checkout. Hateful? Are little kids even capable of being hateful? Well, their parents sure seemed capable of hate.
I mention this because the residents of Red States like Oklahoma eagerly call themselves Christians even though they behave as if the Old Testament trumps the New. Break a commandment? Stone 'em, flog 'em, then toss 'em in prison. Hang Mike Pence, for example.
I once had an elderly neighbor ask me about the new underground prison at the airport his pastor said would be used to put all those who did not willingly hand over their guns to the government when Clinton's Trilateral Commission outlawed gun ownership. How QAnon is that? The airport was adding a few more cells in the basement of the terminal building as DOJ used the airport as a prisoner transfer center. Of course, it had nothing to do with guns, the 2nd Amendment, or the President.
To me, the cultural norms I just described not only show why Kent State was not a one-off event any more than January 6th was. It just seems unfathomable to people whose worldview is is not in synch with regions of our country who think "Try that in a small town" should be the new national anthem.
Marc, that the MSM keeps calling fascism "Christian Nationalism" contributes to the illusion that MAGAs are "patriots" who think "One Nation, 'under God'" means an Evangelical Christian nation ruled by people of white race intolerant of other ethnicities and standards of conduct. Their Jesus is not the loving and forgiving God, but one who promotes their world view and overtly punishes those who dare to question their just hate for sinners and their ruthless treatment of people who do not judge less they be judged. Or as Fascist DeSantis recently said he would do his first day in office - "slit the throats" of career civil servants who his mentor Trump disparages as the "Deep State" for daring to undermine efforts to abandon the constitution they vowed to support.
This is an important topic to be diligent and nuanced about and certainly extends to various professors / writers in academia, several of whom have written books, discussed on various podcasts etc .... I think if you look across academia you will find preference and use to be similar to salon's.
I'm happy to see Thom call certain people fascist these days but the fact that Ruth Ben-Ghiat does not prefer to use that term does not trouble me or lead me to question her work.
Yes, there are important things to understand about how certain seemingly innocuous "we the people" etc slogans are used. Please be familiar with the work of Debra Lipstadt (including her written federal court expert testimony on anti-semitism) on this topic if not already.
As you may know, "Nationalist" or its German equivalent was the first word in "NAZI."
Thanks for the suggestions. In turn, you might download for free Prof. Robert O. Paton's classic book "The Anatomy of Fascism." It gets to be a scary read as you see how closely the GOP follows the fascist takeover strategy. Back when Trump was a political thing (2018ish), I asked Bob if he thought Trump was a fascist. To my surprise, he said no. However, in Nov of 2021, he published an OpEd in Newsweek: "I've Hesitated to Call Donald Trump a Fascist. Until Now" https://www.newsweek.com/robert-paxton-trump-fascist-1560652
So professor Paxton's work indicates that "Christian nationalist" is an improper or inappropriate term and is lacking as compared to "fascist." I don't think so, in fact he specifically points out that trumpism "differs in important ways from historical fascisms."
I was watching the proceedings on Jan 6th, the camera zoomed in on Boebert, all I could see was 1776 on her cell phone and immediately after that, within seconds, the crowd rushed the Capitol and started to try and break down doors and smash windows.
Boebert made that tweet or text message, the moment an objection was raised to the counting of Arizona's electoral votes.
Why she has not been indicted is beyond me. (Not really though) Garland is a conserative Republican and although his DOJ has indicted low level thugs, Not one of the malefactors in Congress or really in the former administration has been indicted, and where so, it is for less serious crimes, not sedition and insurrection, and there is a cottage industry of "experts" out there to defend Garland and his complicity.
By the way the revolution didn't start in 1776, it started in April 1775, when the Red coats marched on Lexington and Concord
And in November 1775 The Snow Campaign was one of the first major military operations of the American Revolutionary War in the southern colonies. Wikipedia
It was an attack on British Fort 96 (the 96th fort build by the Crown) is a national historic site, located about 60 miles south of Greenville, SC
The first act of rebellion was the founding of the community of Watauga, Tennessee, alternately called the Republic of Watauga, it was founded by frontiersmen, and declared itself independent of the Crown. King George and his red coats were unwilling to do anything about it, as it was located in the wilds, and separated by the Appalchians and the wilderness, but it did run astride the old Cherokee war path.
British Maj Ferguson, lead a lo yalist militia to attack Watauga and wipe it off the map, fortunately the word of his designs reached Watauga, and they mustered their own militia, known as the Over the Mountain boys, and unrestrained by baggage trains, horse and mules, they wasted no time and caught Ferguson on King's Mountain, and wiped out the militia. Ferguson is recorded as saying something like God can't move him from the mountain, and indeed he is buried there.
I mention this because the Watauga "Republic" was founded in 1773 and as such the first to give the finger to the King.
A very noteworthy thing that I didnt see mentioned in media accounts - this magistrate judge really warned trump he's going to be locked up if he commits ANY crimes right now, this is just magnificent.
Nyt did an ok job emphasizing the importance of the case, but many media accounts (politico, tge hill) are miserably bad, fail to emphasize the importance of the case and cut right to whatever trump says.
In his short statement of about two minutes, he was very clear that those investigations are continuing. Also, by previous practice, he filed the indictment and then filed a superseding indictment adding defendants and adding additional counts.
Jack Smith will not file a superseding indictment on the January 6 case against Trump. I believe he wants to keep it clean and straight forward. I think he'll file a separate case against the co-conspirators and the Republican congressman that Trump made note of would be there to help him.
Ok that might make sense. Michael Popok described an amazement at how Smith fit all of that into four charges and many other extoll Smith for being well-prepared and say his work is magnificent. My remark was to emphasize that other conspirators are still being pursued, acc to the special counsel and it would appear that, similar to the other case, some will flip and testify as witnesses, others will be charged. (As a matter of prosecutorial strategy, perhaps, neither they nor we know which have flipped.)
The co-conspirators are not referred to as "unindicted" in the indictment, and it is possible that some or all of them have already been indicted under seal (just noting that).
Not sure how relevant the Reagan quote was to Kent state, as it's not mentioned in the story in Britannia about this "seminal event in the Vietnam war era."
I visited Kent state several years ago and found it very interesting and powerful to see the bullet scars and memorials to various aspects of the tragedy that transpired on the campus on may 5, 1970.
The world is upside down, Another of your comments that I agree with. The problem is that there are dozens of high ranking co conspirators and not one of them has received a target letter in Washington D.C. which is where the crime took place.
I suspect that Garland just can't bring himself to indict, fellow conservatives.
Marc you just can't comment without a slur and/or innuendo can you. How mature, how very mature.
And instead of actually telling us what your position is, you post a link,which tells us nothing, except the low level insurrectionists got off with a slap on the wrist, or very minimal jail time.
Which validates what I have been saying.
So please Marc, spit it out, what are you really trying to say.
Oh I admit to tagging you as a Putinisto or a Trump humper in disguise, but that is because you leave me no choice. You have yet to clarify, without ambiguity or evasiveness, your position.
I returned to "The World" in early '70. Saw the Kent State mass murder on TV. Got my Honorable Discharge. Packed my bag, and pulled a Serpico . . . Except, I never returned.
The Iowa Capital Dispatch helped me out. The Dems did challenge Ohio’s electors, unsuccessfully, in 2005. John Kerry lost to George W Bush after having been swiftboated. This is legal, so Grassley was right on this point. But the Dems did not attempt to send an alternate set of electors.
Nowhere did I say that Reagan was president. He was the governor of California and arguably the second most high profile Republican in the country. He was regularly doing press conferences that were covered in national media, and would become president in less than a decade. His words had considerable weight, and his comments about student protesters were seen as the kick off of his campaign for president. Even though he lost the nomination in 1976, he got it in 1980… Using that kind of rhetoric…
I'd qualify the "we" in this sentence: "It would have been the end of America as we know it." This "we" is mostly privileged white people. Communities of color have been violently policed, if not by the U.S. military then by law enforcement. Go back a little further and see how the military-like might of big corporations was brought against union organizers and workers. America as I've known it in my lifetime also includes the (technically nonviolent) suppression of dissent by various arms of the state, and though it isn't happening overtly in my state (MA) at the moment, it's happening blatantly in quite a few others. And as far as I can tell, millions of USians are absolutely OK with it.
At U of I, Champaign-Urbana, I took a whole class on the Kent State massacre taught by a professor who was there and wrote a book about it. The Guardsmen were young kids, from the area, also known as 'townies' who had a bit of a resentment against the more privileged students. The first Guardsman who shot is believed to have just... done it. There wasn't an order or maybe there was from a low level lieutenant who was his immediate superior - no one really knows. When the first shot rang out, others followed immediately. Many of the Guardsmen testified that they thought the shot came from the protestors. Anyhow, it was a FUBAR. Fast forward, this will happen again as we continue to rile up our youth (and older people too) who are brain washed by the fear-mongering and hate spewed by ... everyone. I was listening to an AA Speaker this morning who got sober under infamous, national news reported circumstances. He told a counselor once, when still drinking that, "I'd rather Hate than Hurt.' I think that says it all; so many would rather hate.
Kent State was a bloodbath that never should have happened. The students weren’t armed, and some of those killed were going to class. There was another shooting in 1970 at Jackson State in Mississippi, a HBCU and two students were killed there.
Another thing with Kent State was that people spread nasty and false rumors about the students protesting and those who were injured and killed. It’s rather like how the wingnut media sphere functions now.
I was listening to a call in talk radio show in Cleveland then. A man called in and said if his daughter was protesting the war he would want her killed. There was 30 seconds of dead air and the host came back on. He said that was the most horrible thing he ever heard and he sounded emotional.
That is a horrible thing for a parent to say. Sandy Scheuer was killed while walking to class, and Allison Krause was killed for protesting. I doubt their parents agreed with this.
I can imagine that you were told just that. If only it were that 'sexy'. My professor stated that the Guardsmen were in fact from the Ohio National Guard and some were local. Many were 18, 19 years old. The 'locals' 'Townies' had a fear of the SDS and some of the more militant student organizations. The fear was not legitimate but years of underlying resentments towards the 'privileged' college kids and blue collar working class did fuel the situation. Keep in mind that the college students escaped the draft; the town saw them as draft dodgers. Also, some of the Guardsmen had either been to Vietnam, might have to go and/or had family members who were there. I'm not sure but, I recall that one of the Guardsmen had a brother who was killed in Vietnam. I'll look for the book as see if I can find it.
You didn't read or absorb Robert Webers post. He said "We were told #Nixon conjured willing guardsman from a southern state to head north of "Yankee Land"
He did not say that it was guardsman from southern states that shot the students.
About Chuck Grassley-please point me toward more information regarding what he thinks the Democrats did in 2004. I’m an Iowan and want to know if there is any truth in his comments to the Iowa Capitol Dispatch.
I’m not from Iowa, but I’m also curious as to exactly how or why Grassley thought Pence wasn’t going to be there? Why did he think that? Where did he get that notion? His words do not seem to indicate that he was there just as a formality but that he actually thought he would take over because Pence wasn’t expected to be there. I find his choice of words very curious.
I have my doubts about Grassley’s honesty.
No need for doubts, he’s eyeball deep in maga manure!
I'd like to know, too!
Ms. Birch, remember the "hanging Chads" in Florida? The dems wanted to keep counting ballots; but the Supreme Court stopped it and handed the Presidential election, barely, to Baby Bush. Is that possibly what that creepy Grassley was talking about?
P.S. I went to grad school at ISU many years ago. I loved Ioway and Iowayans. What has happened there?
Why do you doubt the Iowa Capitol Dispatch. A closet Trump Humper?
Here: read it for yourself https://iowacapitaldispatch.com/2021/01/05/grassley-suggests-he-may-preside-over-senate-debate-on-electoral-college-votes/
During an exchange with reporters on Tuesday, Grassley was asked how he plans to vote.
“Well, first of all, I will be — if the Vice President isn’t there and we don’t expect him to be there, I will be presiding over the Senate,” according to a transcript of his remarks sent by a spokesperson.
Grassley serves as the president pro tempore of the Senate and will preside over any portion of the debate that Pence does not attend. But Grassley expects Pence to be present on Wednesday, according to his spokesperson.
So tell us why do you doubt this. I noticed that you received 18 up votes, apparently by people who did not understand your subtext.
Please pardon me if I take a slightly overblown view of the Kent State shootings which killed several young students. It was an infamy, no doubt, I agree. How many of us remember the several Black college students who were killed in a similar manner at Jackson State College in Mississippi on May 15, 1970?
And how many remember the riots in Detroit July 1967 when Forty three people were killed "officially," gunned down by police, Michigan National Guardsmen and soldiers of the United States infantry? The overwhelming majority of the dead, Black.
At four am on Sunday morning July 23, 1967 the White Detroit Police department raided a blind pig (an after hours, unlicensed social club serving booze) on Twelfth Street in the heart of what White Suburban citizens called the "Negro Ghetto." Eighty two people were arrested; two of them recently returned Decorated Vietnam-War-Heroes. This thoughtless, insensitive act of police-bullying set off a spontaneously explosive riot which quickly spread throughout the huge city of Detroit.
The Michigan Governor, Republican George Romney was reluctant to declare a "state of emergency" as Democratic President Lyndon Johnson requested. A "state of emergency" would have given Johnson the excuse to activate the Insurrection Act of 1807 and send armed U.S. soldiers into my home town. The place where I grew to manhood, graduated high school, earned a Bachelor's degree and married the most irresistible woman I have known these last sixty seven years. We were both young social workers in the city at that time.
Romney finally did declare an emergency and, subsequently I looked up from my backyard into the industrially polluted air on Detroit's East side near the Infamous PlayBoy Club and saw something I never dreamed I would see in the City I loved: twenty two military attack helicopters buzzed over me on their way to East Kercheval Street where they disgorged soldiers of the 101st and 82nd Air-born Divisions. As they flew over the soldiers in those Helicopters were peering down pointing automatic rifles at me. I felt like a Vietnamese peasant: Instant, overwhelming fear. Within minutes I could hear the distant popping of gunfire as American soldiers killed some of my fellow citizens on East Kercheval. I jumped into my little English Anglia and drove in the direction of the shooting intending to witness what was being done to my city by my own national military. However, I was unable to drive into the killing zone because I was turned back by Michigan State Police officers who had blocked off all roads leading into the area.
Within days the island in the middle of the Detroit River, Belle Isle, down the street from my house was packed with hundreds, perhaps thousands of young Black men; incarcerated in a make-shift concentration camp.
Presently, I visited former colleagues with whom I had previously worked at Harper Hospital when I was working my way through college. They told me the large morgue at Harper was overflowing with dead bodies. They were parking them in hallways on gurneys outside of the morgue. The "official" dead-body count by the government authorities was forty three after the riot was over. But I have never believed that number because I had worked for months in Harper"s Central Supply Department and Knew how huge that morgue was; having wheeled many corpses into it myself before the riot occurred.
I understand why so many Americans doubt the veracity of their government. Edward Snowden is correct: The first instinct of those in power--in all governments--is to dissemble when the going gets tough; and they always say they are acting in "our" best interests. Us, citizens. What they are really doing is hanging on to power.
I could go on like this for thousands of words. But let me relate just one more example of how truth is the second victim when the killing starts.
I was sharing a bottle of cheap wine in the apartment of an old friend from school days when the building began to vibrate in a strange oscillatory fashion. Next we heard a low-pitched rumbling sound from the street several stories below. We stuck our heads out a window and saw in the street an olive-green-colored tank cranking its way down the middle of the avenue. A young soldier lifted his head up out of the tank and yelled at us with a bullhorn to "get away from the window or I will shoot!" We pulled back in but could still see out into the street below. The machine gun on the tank was firing rounds up at the roof of the Ford Hospital. We could see the slugs easily as they
swiftly rose up at an acute angle because they were "tracers" which glow brightly creating long, straight, lines in the air which looked like neon lights stretched out several hundred yards into the sky.
The next day T.V. News reported that the tank was firing at snipers on the Ford-Hospital roof. Snipers, they claimed, were firing down at the tank and the driver said he could hear bullets "plinking" off the steel armor plating.
However a subsequent investigation weeks later revealed there was another tank many blocks distant on the opposite side of Ford Hospital, also firing at snipers on the hospital's roof. It was eventually suggested that the two tanks, many blocks apart and not visible to each other were lofting rounds up, over the building and those slugs were in all likelihood arcing down on the other side of the building "plinking" off the other tank. Snipers were never found. Let me repeat...never found. Yet, to this day there are those who claim snipers were firing from high up on roofs. This error in perception has never been "officially" corrected.
Please take Thom Hartman seriously when he talks about the implications of invoking the Insurrection Act. Those riots in 1967, a kind which could spread across this country, were at that time, the greatest civil insurrection in America except for the War Between The States. If something like that happens again, there could be prodigious, obscene bloodletting; possibly worse than Detroit all those years ago. Do not make the mistake of thinking this was a "race riot!" It was not. There were many whites in the streets burning and looting along with their Black Brothers. This was a Poor People's Riot. And Black People always get the worst end of the stick.
Sleep well and vote.
G. F. Dobbertin
Thanks for this, it's a very good and interesting contribution here and certainly shows how "black history" is underappreciated. Although that doesn't necessary translate into Kent state being "overblown" - the importance of Jackson and Detroit being legitimate, the Kent state events certainly grabbed intense attention, resulted in massive student protests across the country, and (I think) helped turn the tide of public opinion about the war.
Mr. S. I think what "helped turn the tide of public opinion about the war" was 50,000 American mothers seeing their sons come home in black plastic body bags. Don't you?
GFD
More complicated than that. Body counts were notoriously bad. Americans were unaware of 1968 Mai lai massacre until late 1969. Americans were told for years it needed to take certain losses because the tide was turning or it would soon turn. So although it was 1967 when less than a majority first supported our "conducting of" the war, still, less than 20 percent were polled as supporting the withdrawal of troops. Nixon pledged to end the war even as a candidate in 1968 but it was always a matter of when. It didn't happen for 5 more years, which years included increased tv media coverage of actual war developments and casualties, news of escalating casualties, the massacre at Mai lai, the results of 1968 tet offensive, Woodstock in 1969, Kent state in 1970. Students had been protesting widely since 1967 and much media / public opinion was to criticize and demonize those who protested. On one (very publicly visible) large wall of my high school, someone spray painted "the footprint of the American chicken" next to a large peace sign, and this was in the early 70s. Students were attacked and vilified for many years for protesting the war or for refusing to come home in those body bags.
Also interesting to note that before 1971, 18-20 year olds generally were ineligible to vote....
The wiki summary of 26th amendment mentions the Oregon v. Mitchell supreme court case, which is one i view as very telling and important for analyzing recent voting rights cases.
Wikipedia:
"Determined to get around inaction on the issue, congressional allies included a provision for the 18-year-old vote in a 1970 bill that extended the Voting Rights Act. The Supreme Court subsequently held in the case of Oregon v. Mitchell that Congress could not lower the voting age for state and local elections. Recognizing the confusion and costs that would be involved in maintaining separate voting rolls and elections for federal and state contests, Congress quickly proposed and the states ratified the Twenty-sixth Amendment."
Marc I saw that you made a comment accusing me of anti semitism.
Get this through your thick head, I really don't care what you are anyone else thinks of me, I know who I am,and what I stand for and won't tolerate. And I won't tolerate tropes like yours. Hurl a charge that is suppose to intimidate and cower someone. Get a grip it doesn't work on me, nor does attempts to slander me with the racist trope.
No person, no group, no religion is beyond criticism and inspection. Because no one, no group, no religion or ethnic identity is faultless, each has their miscreants and bad actors.
So me posting a fact, from a Jewish organization yet, that Putin and Trump were recognized as Power Jews (or helping Jews) is evidence of anti semitism.
Even Jews like Noam Chmsky and Norman Finklestein author of the Holocaust Industry, are called antismites, and you toss around some persons all too sensitive bias as gospel with a link.
I don't see Christians or Muslims tossing around slurs and tropes when I point out unpleasant facts about Christianity and Islam (both of which I have studied, in depth, having done something that most have never done, read and studied their sacred scriptures, even the Tenach.
Think of me as you wish, but you are wasting your time throwing at me, slurs and tropes.
Let me tell you this, their is nothing special about Jews, Muslims and Christians, nor Hindus except they all share one feature, bias and bigotry. Apparently there are a lot of Jews in Israel and America who share my POV. What I totally disdain and fear is using people, and ethnicities or "races" as scapegoats, despite that no one , no group are vestal virgins.
And yes there are asshole atheists, I've met a few, even ones who think that women who have an abortion are guilty of murder.
I'm 84 and noticed that if you are too effusive about Jews, you are an anti semite, if you are critical you are an anti semite, and what is curious about that slander is that most Jews (Ashkenazi) are not semites, where as Arabs are. So my distaste and critique of Islamic theology, fatwa's and practices make me an anti semite, and the tension between Israel and the Arabs is nothing more than an internecine quarrel, just like that stupidy that goes on in the Balkans between the descendants of Bogomil Christians (Muslim Bosnians), Roman Catholic Croats and Serbian Greek Orthodox, all of the wasted blood, pain, anguish, rape and torture between three groups of Slavs..over what.. ethnic identy born out of religion.
It is an insane world. But thanks to global warming it will all come to an end, much sooner than expected.
So stop wasting your time, with your all too sensitive antenna, looking anywhere and everywhere for affront.
I got the same message for all minorities, focus on the real threats and cease alienating people and making enemies.
It would be a good start to arrest the 20 House Fwee-dumb Caucus members, starting with "General" (in the PA National Guard) Scott Perry, for their treason.
I thought nothing could surprise m about the malignant dog who was our President, but this does.
Thank you.
I am following this, with some brilliant friends who are retired educators and attorneys!
Luttig and Tribe, and the Task Force of top legal minds that they have organized is opening this conversation in the public domain, because in the Political THEATER — is where our citizens get all their information, lacking any education that would provide the evidence and FACTS of the reality of what this criminal ex-president has done !
Tv and the internet gave the liar-in -chief a megaphone— which he used with impunity— until now — when the ROL (Rule of LAW) in FEDERAL Court is about to show this mobster, what the justices department can do.
The 14th amendment is Real
But the process where each state could hold him accountable has never been spelled out.
And that , Robert, is the fly in the ointment of Constitutional laws
I remember watching the news and seeing the students being gunned down at Kent state! I was only 11 and I was sickened that our government would do that to its citizens!
Burning down the cities would cost the rich autocrats money. Delaying Trump's trial then allowing him to pardon himself after getting elected, would be much more cost-effective for the autocrats. Biden can do a number of things to lose the election. From what I've seen so far with classified information and not prosecuting about 300 GOP, it would not surprise me if he did. The left has not been in charge of the Democratic party for over 40 years yet gets the blame for what the Reagan democrats and the obstructing Republicans have done. I suggest all rational people get off the grid as much as possible, it will probably collapse soon anyway from global warming, and prepared to defend yourselves.
Applause, again? :)
Thanks, by the way that link to 18 USC mentions the canal zone. I spent three years in Panama and there were a large number of people call Zonians, born in the Zone, most of Panamanian US ancestry, that were U.S. Citizens. To keep their status they needed a permanent residence in ConUS, and had to return to the US every five years.
America rarely asks itself why it is always Republicans who break the laws and who are so willing to use violence against the very citizens they vowed to protect and defend.
Back when Clinton took office, I was transferred to Oklahoma City to manage a new FAA lab that conducted training and organizational R&D. Part of the deal for loaning me was that we would also support JCS, and the White House.
Oklahoma was my first exposure to a part of America that did not enforce (or even see the point in) the separation of Church and state. It seemed that most Okies tended to conflate sin with crime. Neighbors and some of my staff would tell me that their pastor told them who to vote for and openly condemned liberal politicians as evil sinners from the pulpit on Sunday. On several occasions, I even heard "Have your been saved?" as a pick-up line in bars.
Even though I completed my graduate studies and post doc in Fort Worth Texas, I was shocked to hear parents telling their children to "Stop bein' so hateful!" just for crying when a parent took a candy bar out of their hand at the grocery store checkout. Hateful? Are little kids even capable of being hateful? Well, their parents sure seemed capable of hate.
I mention this because the residents of Red States like Oklahoma eagerly call themselves Christians even though they behave as if the Old Testament trumps the New. Break a commandment? Stone 'em, flog 'em, then toss 'em in prison. Hang Mike Pence, for example.
I once had an elderly neighbor ask me about the new underground prison at the airport his pastor said would be used to put all those who did not willingly hand over their guns to the government when Clinton's Trilateral Commission outlawed gun ownership. How QAnon is that? The airport was adding a few more cells in the basement of the terminal building as DOJ used the airport as a prisoner transfer center. Of course, it had nothing to do with guns, the 2nd Amendment, or the President.
To me, the cultural norms I just described not only show why Kent State was not a one-off event any more than January 6th was. It just seems unfathomable to people whose worldview is is not in synch with regions of our country who think "Try that in a small town" should be the new national anthem.
This article certainly supports what's expressed above.
https://www.salon.com/2022/02/11/christian-nationalism-drove-jan-6-now-its-embraced-the-big-lie-and-wants-to-conquer-america/
Marc, that the MSM keeps calling fascism "Christian Nationalism" contributes to the illusion that MAGAs are "patriots" who think "One Nation, 'under God'" means an Evangelical Christian nation ruled by people of white race intolerant of other ethnicities and standards of conduct. Their Jesus is not the loving and forgiving God, but one who promotes their world view and overtly punishes those who dare to question their just hate for sinners and their ruthless treatment of people who do not judge less they be judged. Or as Fascist DeSantis recently said he would do his first day in office - "slit the throats" of career civil servants who his mentor Trump disparages as the "Deep State" for daring to undermine efforts to abandon the constitution they vowed to support.
This is an important topic to be diligent and nuanced about and certainly extends to various professors / writers in academia, several of whom have written books, discussed on various podcasts etc .... I think if you look across academia you will find preference and use to be similar to salon's.
I'm happy to see Thom call certain people fascist these days but the fact that Ruth Ben-Ghiat does not prefer to use that term does not trouble me or lead me to question her work.
Yes, there are important things to understand about how certain seemingly innocuous "we the people" etc slogans are used. Please be familiar with the work of Debra Lipstadt (including her written federal court expert testimony on anti-semitism) on this topic if not already.
As you may know, "Nationalist" or its German equivalent was the first word in "NAZI."
Thanks for the suggestions. In turn, you might download for free Prof. Robert O. Paton's classic book "The Anatomy of Fascism." It gets to be a scary read as you see how closely the GOP follows the fascist takeover strategy. Back when Trump was a political thing (2018ish), I asked Bob if he thought Trump was a fascist. To my surprise, he said no. However, in Nov of 2021, he published an OpEd in Newsweek: "I've Hesitated to Call Donald Trump a Fascist. Until Now" https://www.newsweek.com/robert-paxton-trump-fascist-1560652
So professor Paxton's work indicates that "Christian nationalist" is an improper or inappropriate term and is lacking as compared to "fascist." I don't think so, in fact he specifically points out that trumpism "differs in important ways from historical fascisms."
I was watching the proceedings on Jan 6th, the camera zoomed in on Boebert, all I could see was 1776 on her cell phone and immediately after that, within seconds, the crowd rushed the Capitol and started to try and break down doors and smash windows.
Boebert made that tweet or text message, the moment an objection was raised to the counting of Arizona's electoral votes.
Why she has not been indicted is beyond me. (Not really though) Garland is a conserative Republican and although his DOJ has indicted low level thugs, Not one of the malefactors in Congress or really in the former administration has been indicted, and where so, it is for less serious crimes, not sedition and insurrection, and there is a cottage industry of "experts" out there to defend Garland and his complicity.
By the way the revolution didn't start in 1776, it started in April 1775, when the Red coats marched on Lexington and Concord
And in November 1775 The Snow Campaign was one of the first major military operations of the American Revolutionary War in the southern colonies. Wikipedia
It was an attack on British Fort 96 (the 96th fort build by the Crown) is a national historic site, located about 60 miles south of Greenville, SC
The first act of rebellion was the founding of the community of Watauga, Tennessee, alternately called the Republic of Watauga, it was founded by frontiersmen, and declared itself independent of the Crown. King George and his red coats were unwilling to do anything about it, as it was located in the wilds, and separated by the Appalchians and the wilderness, but it did run astride the old Cherokee war path.
British Maj Ferguson, lead a lo yalist militia to attack Watauga and wipe it off the map, fortunately the word of his designs reached Watauga, and they mustered their own militia, known as the Over the Mountain boys, and unrestrained by baggage trains, horse and mules, they wasted no time and caught Ferguson on King's Mountain, and wiped out the militia. Ferguson is recorded as saying something like God can't move him from the mountain, and indeed he is buried there.
I mention this because the Watauga "Republic" was founded in 1773 and as such the first to give the finger to the King.
Have faith. Jack Smith will indict the others and the full flock of followers and enablers.
A very noteworthy thing that I didnt see mentioned in media accounts - this magistrate judge really warned trump he's going to be locked up if he commits ANY crimes right now, this is just magnificent.
Nyt did an ok job emphasizing the importance of the case, but many media accounts (politico, tge hill) are miserably bad, fail to emphasize the importance of the case and cut right to whatever trump says.
In his short statement of about two minutes, he was very clear that those investigations are continuing. Also, by previous practice, he filed the indictment and then filed a superseding indictment adding defendants and adding additional counts.
Jack Smith will not file a superseding indictment on the January 6 case against Trump. I believe he wants to keep it clean and straight forward. I think he'll file a separate case against the co-conspirators and the Republican congressman that Trump made note of would be there to help him.
Ok that might make sense. Michael Popok described an amazement at how Smith fit all of that into four charges and many other extoll Smith for being well-prepared and say his work is magnificent. My remark was to emphasize that other conspirators are still being pursued, acc to the special counsel and it would appear that, similar to the other case, some will flip and testify as witnesses, others will be charged. (As a matter of prosecutorial strategy, perhaps, neither they nor we know which have flipped.)
The co-conspirators are not referred to as "unindicted" in the indictment, and it is possible that some or all of them have already been indicted under seal (just noting that).
Not sure how relevant the Reagan quote was to Kent state, as it's not mentioned in the story in Britannia about this "seminal event in the Vietnam war era."
I visited Kent state several years ago and found it very interesting and powerful to see the bullet scars and memorials to various aspects of the tragedy that transpired on the campus on may 5, 1970.
The world is upside down, Another of your comments that I agree with. The problem is that there are dozens of high ranking co conspirators and not one of them has received a target letter in Washington D.C. which is where the crime took place.
I suspect that Garland just can't bring himself to indict, fellow conservatives.
" ...... and our investigation of other individuals continues...."
- Jack Smith, Special Counsel
August 1, 2023
https://www.npr.org/2021/02/09/965472049/the-capitol-siege-the-arrested-and-their-stories
Marc you just can't comment without a slur and/or innuendo can you. How mature, how very mature.
And instead of actually telling us what your position is, you post a link,which tells us nothing, except the low level insurrectionists got off with a slap on the wrist, or very minimal jail time.
Which validates what I have been saying.
So please Marc, spit it out, what are you really trying to say.
Oh I admit to tagging you as a Putinisto or a Trump humper in disguise, but that is because you leave me no choice. You have yet to clarify, without ambiguity or evasiveness, your position.
I returned to "The World" in early '70. Saw the Kent State mass murder on TV. Got my Honorable Discharge. Packed my bag, and pulled a Serpico . . . Except, I never returned.
Thought it was broken, then. Know it is now.
The Iowa Capital Dispatch helped me out. The Dems did challenge Ohio’s electors, unsuccessfully, in 2005. John Kerry lost to George W Bush after having been swiftboated. This is legal, so Grassley was right on this point. But the Dems did not attempt to send an alternate set of electors.
.... the iconic Kent state photographs are still in my memorabilia box.... once again, thank you Tom !
Thom, please correct so we can share - Nixon was the President - not Reagan.
Nowhere did I say that Reagan was president. He was the governor of California and arguably the second most high profile Republican in the country. He was regularly doing press conferences that were covered in national media, and would become president in less than a decade. His words had considerable weight, and his comments about student protesters were seen as the kick off of his campaign for president. Even though he lost the nomination in 1976, he got it in 1980… Using that kind of rhetoric…
I'd qualify the "we" in this sentence: "It would have been the end of America as we know it." This "we" is mostly privileged white people. Communities of color have been violently policed, if not by the U.S. military then by law enforcement. Go back a little further and see how the military-like might of big corporations was brought against union organizers and workers. America as I've known it in my lifetime also includes the (technically nonviolent) suppression of dissent by various arms of the state, and though it isn't happening overtly in my state (MA) at the moment, it's happening blatantly in quite a few others. And as far as I can tell, millions of USians are absolutely OK with it.