So here we are in 2023 and the real beliefs and plans of the Founding generation — slaveholders and abolitionists alike — have dissolved into a blur of BS, Qanon, and fundamentalist religion
Anyone who questions your deep, broad, knowledge of our nation's history is of a mind set that can never accept the truth. A truth that threatens their worldview of authoritarian domination and punishment of those lower in their imaginary social/religious hierarchy. A worldview that maximizes inequality and is held by an evangelical majority in SCOTUS who misrepresented themselves during their confirmation hearings.
I will be sharing this to my email lists and groups on FB. I will also share it and my statement above with the SCOTUS Public Information office.
Your comparison to Pakistan is a good one; let's not forget Putin's interest in dividing the U.S. though. Much of those GOP reps are autocrats through and through. As far as religion though, that's a huge battle. Jefferson was an amazing thinker and author, but where is he now? Not that the U.S. today doesn't have some great thinkers, but they're reduced to sound bites and Facebook posts or Twitter tweets. There's not much attention span in today's citizens for poring over such deep thinking as Jefferson was capable of.
Since we're talking about your country, I feel I must put a plug in for a documentary I watched last night -- it's called "Where to Invade Next", compiled by Michael Moore. He tours some European countries and one N. African one (Tunisia) to see if there's any good ideas/practices he can bring back to the U.S. While he doesn't go into religion, there's bits on education, justice (in terms of prisons and drugs), and labor practices. I was left with the impression that your country's woes are due to a philosophy of selfishness - as expressed by one Icelandic woman, "it's all about me, rather than we". If I wished to simplify the woes of the U.S., I'd boil it down to that also. There are some of your citizens who recognize the value in others, but for the large part I'd say that your Egos are way too big. This is why, as Moore discovers, the male bankers were all prosecuted -- yes, that's correct, bankers were prosecuted -- after the '08 collapse of the financial system -- and the women replaced them, because women place we over me. Anyways, some good lessons for America in this documentary.
So police officers, hospital personnel, emergency first responders and others who are scheduled to work on Christmas can claim their religious nonsense is more important than showing up for work?
Let's also ask whether these pious workers should supply something to verify that they're practicing Christians, or, because lying is a sin, we should simply take them at their word.
Let's also ask whether, at the time they applied for their jobs, they were told that they could be called in to work on the "Sabbath." And whether keeping the Sabbath "holy" means getting the day off from work.
Hopefully, the courts will have to come to grips with the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment, which we hope) will compel them to rule that all the religious beliefs of the Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and Atheists, must prevail!
I'm agnostic. The law should be too. There now I'm just like the Republican assholes on the Court---only a lot less women would be hurt!
Love the notion President Washington was good at blowing-off people. That's how he survived to be an old man.
The opening prayers in the House always make my skin crawl. Some of the stuff the chaplains say is cringe-worthy. Maybe not as bad as what MTG says?
I'll use Madison's "divine right of conscience" to determine how to treat people. And, why shouldn't Jefferson pick and choose from the Bible---that's how a bunch of M-E-N put it together.
I think you found my favorite Jefferson quote: “But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.” In the Army we used always say, "It ain't arms and legs!", when trying to determine something concerning the need for action while doing our police work.
Ignorance reigns Supreme. Thanks for trying to change that, Thom.
The separation of church and state has had some notable lapses. In the 1870's Indian agents sent to the reservations were thought to posses greater honesty, but sadly that was not true. This policy was promoted by Grant. Not only were they to administer Indian policy, but they were also expected to promote christian values. Much of the correspondence among army officers in the 19th century touted christian values and that they should be promoted to the Indians. I'm talking about prominent generals like Sherman, Sheridan and others. The wall that should be the separation of church and state has been more like a leaky sieve.
Dual problems complicate this conundrum profoundly. We have a great many people of power and influence, including those with money to burn and the politicians they buy who are adept at exploiting, manipulating, and provoking sincere religious people and inordinately anxious and fearful conservatives with a tendency to follow the lead of church and community leaders on the right fringe. Those people opportunistically take whatever positions that religious and reactionary groups and individuals stake out with the hope of profits and political or other advantages.
Driving the entire process are the believers who have so strongly identified with religious icons and dogma and who see the world as so hopelessly enveloped in evil that they feel no connection to the rest of us and live solely for a glorious future life-after-death. A scorched earth approach is the only thing that is logical in their child-like perception. If Jesus died on the cross, after being born to a godly virgin in a manger, to save the whole population of the earth (with certain exceptions, depending on your sources), then they feel obliged to make their own personal sacrifices, which might involve circumventing man’s laws or even taking human lives. It is a grave mistake to underestimate the passion that millions of these people feel or how many of them there are waiting for some sign or provocation.
There are a few of both types sitting on the high court.
We like to indulge ourselves with the perception that these true believers are a tiny minority and one hopes that most would not take extreme actions without earth-shattering events. However, just as in the case of someone who responded to one of my posts this week, some large percentage of such people are persuaded beyond all doubt that there is a creepy devious guy named Satan, Lucifer, or the devil who is in an epic eternal struggle with another guy named God, and whom we mortals need to oppose at every turn. We minimize or ignore the danger those people pose to democracy at our own peril.
Thank you so much for this article/chapter. It is succinct and easy to understand and firmly addresses the issues of religious philosophy gaining political over government. We do have many examples in the world in which Church and State have supported one another even to becoming one power to the detriment of the citizenry.
Unintended consequences. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and any ruling in favor of the Christians is a ruling in favor of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists,Sikhs. From PBS.org n a milestone for religious freedom and against employment discrimination, a federal court of appeals granted a preliminary injunction last month that requires the Marine Corps to immediately allow two Sikh Americans to enlist and begin basic training without shaving their heads and beards, while also allowing them to wear turbans, patkas, and other religious articles that their faith requires.
Muslims will be able to insist on Fridays off, don't orthodox Jews get Saturday off anyway?
Jihad is a religious requirement, although 21st Century Muslims obfuscate by claiming that Jihad is spiritual.
What next a salafist Muslim stands up in court and claims that it was his religious duty to kill infidels.
Not so far fetched, as Dominionists (Christian Reconstructionists) can claim it is their religious duty to stone gays, adulterers, rebellious teens, after all these "punishments" are commanded by the Bible.
"I plead not guilty judge, I was only doing my religious duty, and am protected by the Supreme court.
Problem is these uproars about free speech and freedom of religion, are not based on the constitution.
I invite everyone including SCOTUS to read the 1st Bill of Rights, all it says is that Congress shall make no law.. there is nothing in it about persons, municipalities, states. And nothing about employers.
"Not so far fetched, as Dominionists (Christian Reconstructionists) can claim it is their religious duty to stone gays, adulterers, rebellious teens, after all these 'punishments' are commanded by the Bible."
In my opinion, if Garland would have prosecuted about 122 GOP lawmakers that would not certify the election for sedition, Dems could have won the Congress, and appointed more supreme Court justices to nullify the crazies that we've got.
Also, if Garland would have prosecuted about 84 fake GOP electors, that would send a message to the seditionist.
The statute of limitations on sedition is 5 years. Biden, in my opinion, must replace Garland ASAP! If Biden does not replace Garland, I would have to conclude, that he is part of the insurrection. A corporatist and a good Catholic boy.
EXPLOSIVE!!! Kryptonite to the MAGA,QANON, RIGHT WING THEROCRATIC MASSES. Thank you Thom.
I Do hope the corrupt 'justices'
rule in Favor of work-Free
Sabbaths 'cause MY
Religion has Seven
of 'em. per week.
.
that's just for Starters.
my Gawd works
in Mysterious ways.
Do I have to have a different colander for each Sabbath?
"Professor" Hartman,
Anyone who questions your deep, broad, knowledge of our nation's history is of a mind set that can never accept the truth. A truth that threatens their worldview of authoritarian domination and punishment of those lower in their imaginary social/religious hierarchy. A worldview that maximizes inequality and is held by an evangelical majority in SCOTUS who misrepresented themselves during their confirmation hearings.
I will be sharing this to my email lists and groups on FB. I will also share it and my statement above with the SCOTUS Public Information office.
Your comparison to Pakistan is a good one; let's not forget Putin's interest in dividing the U.S. though. Much of those GOP reps are autocrats through and through. As far as religion though, that's a huge battle. Jefferson was an amazing thinker and author, but where is he now? Not that the U.S. today doesn't have some great thinkers, but they're reduced to sound bites and Facebook posts or Twitter tweets. There's not much attention span in today's citizens for poring over such deep thinking as Jefferson was capable of.
Since we're talking about your country, I feel I must put a plug in for a documentary I watched last night -- it's called "Where to Invade Next", compiled by Michael Moore. He tours some European countries and one N. African one (Tunisia) to see if there's any good ideas/practices he can bring back to the U.S. While he doesn't go into religion, there's bits on education, justice (in terms of prisons and drugs), and labor practices. I was left with the impression that your country's woes are due to a philosophy of selfishness - as expressed by one Icelandic woman, "it's all about me, rather than we". If I wished to simplify the woes of the U.S., I'd boil it down to that also. There are some of your citizens who recognize the value in others, but for the large part I'd say that your Egos are way too big. This is why, as Moore discovers, the male bankers were all prosecuted -- yes, that's correct, bankers were prosecuted -- after the '08 collapse of the financial system -- and the women replaced them, because women place we over me. Anyways, some good lessons for America in this documentary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KeAZho8TKo
So police officers, hospital personnel, emergency first responders and others who are scheduled to work on Christmas can claim their religious nonsense is more important than showing up for work?
Let's also ask whether these pious workers should supply something to verify that they're practicing Christians, or, because lying is a sin, we should simply take them at their word.
Let's also ask whether, at the time they applied for their jobs, they were told that they could be called in to work on the "Sabbath." And whether keeping the Sabbath "holy" means getting the day off from work.
Hopefully, the courts will have to come to grips with the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment, which we hope) will compel them to rule that all the religious beliefs of the Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and Atheists, must prevail!
what's the Quickest path
to Armageddon?
Someone like Putin who thinks he has been ordained by God to take Ukraine and whatever else he wants?
I'm agnostic. The law should be too. There now I'm just like the Republican assholes on the Court---only a lot less women would be hurt!
Love the notion President Washington was good at blowing-off people. That's how he survived to be an old man.
The opening prayers in the House always make my skin crawl. Some of the stuff the chaplains say is cringe-worthy. Maybe not as bad as what MTG says?
I'll use Madison's "divine right of conscience" to determine how to treat people. And, why shouldn't Jefferson pick and choose from the Bible---that's how a bunch of M-E-N put it together.
I think you found my favorite Jefferson quote: “But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.” In the Army we used always say, "It ain't arms and legs!", when trying to determine something concerning the need for action while doing our police work.
Ignorance reigns Supreme. Thanks for trying to change that, Thom.
The separation of church and state has had some notable lapses. In the 1870's Indian agents sent to the reservations were thought to posses greater honesty, but sadly that was not true. This policy was promoted by Grant. Not only were they to administer Indian policy, but they were also expected to promote christian values. Much of the correspondence among army officers in the 19th century touted christian values and that they should be promoted to the Indians. I'm talking about prominent generals like Sherman, Sheridan and others. The wall that should be the separation of church and state has been more like a leaky sieve.
"The wall that should be the separation
of church and state has been
more like a leaky sieve."
.
or maybe more like
a mortar and pestilence
and a very Vengeful god
Dual problems complicate this conundrum profoundly. We have a great many people of power and influence, including those with money to burn and the politicians they buy who are adept at exploiting, manipulating, and provoking sincere religious people and inordinately anxious and fearful conservatives with a tendency to follow the lead of church and community leaders on the right fringe. Those people opportunistically take whatever positions that religious and reactionary groups and individuals stake out with the hope of profits and political or other advantages.
Driving the entire process are the believers who have so strongly identified with religious icons and dogma and who see the world as so hopelessly enveloped in evil that they feel no connection to the rest of us and live solely for a glorious future life-after-death. A scorched earth approach is the only thing that is logical in their child-like perception. If Jesus died on the cross, after being born to a godly virgin in a manger, to save the whole population of the earth (with certain exceptions, depending on your sources), then they feel obliged to make their own personal sacrifices, which might involve circumventing man’s laws or even taking human lives. It is a grave mistake to underestimate the passion that millions of these people feel or how many of them there are waiting for some sign or provocation.
There are a few of both types sitting on the high court.
We like to indulge ourselves with the perception that these true believers are a tiny minority and one hopes that most would not take extreme actions without earth-shattering events. However, just as in the case of someone who responded to one of my posts this week, some large percentage of such people are persuaded beyond all doubt that there is a creepy devious guy named Satan, Lucifer, or the devil who is in an epic eternal struggle with another guy named God, and whom we mortals need to oppose at every turn. We minimize or ignore the danger those people pose to democracy at our own peril.
Thank you so much for this article/chapter. It is succinct and easy to understand and firmly addresses the issues of religious philosophy gaining political over government. We do have many examples in the world in which Church and State have supported one another even to becoming one power to the detriment of the citizenry.
I have no hope that the Evangelical Supreme Court justices will do the right thing. The consequences are scary.
Unintended consequences. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and any ruling in favor of the Christians is a ruling in favor of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists,Sikhs. From PBS.org n a milestone for religious freedom and against employment discrimination, a federal court of appeals granted a preliminary injunction last month that requires the Marine Corps to immediately allow two Sikh Americans to enlist and begin basic training without shaving their heads and beards, while also allowing them to wear turbans, patkas, and other religious articles that their faith requires.
Muslims will be able to insist on Fridays off, don't orthodox Jews get Saturday off anyway?
Jihad is a religious requirement, although 21st Century Muslims obfuscate by claiming that Jihad is spiritual.
What next a salafist Muslim stands up in court and claims that it was his religious duty to kill infidels.
Not so far fetched, as Dominionists (Christian Reconstructionists) can claim it is their religious duty to stone gays, adulterers, rebellious teens, after all these "punishments" are commanded by the Bible.
"I plead not guilty judge, I was only doing my religious duty, and am protected by the Supreme court.
Problem is these uproars about free speech and freedom of religion, are not based on the constitution.
I invite everyone including SCOTUS to read the 1st Bill of Rights, all it says is that Congress shall make no law.. there is nothing in it about persons, municipalities, states. And nothing about employers.
"Not so far fetched, as Dominionists (Christian Reconstructionists) can claim it is their religious duty to stone gays, adulterers, rebellious teens, after all these 'punishments' are commanded by the Bible."
.
let's keep this one Quiet.
no sense in awakening
the MkKkonnell Ct.
In my opinion, if Garland would have prosecuted about 122 GOP lawmakers that would not certify the election for sedition, Dems could have won the Congress, and appointed more supreme Court justices to nullify the crazies that we've got.
Also, if Garland would have prosecuted about 84 fake GOP electors, that would send a message to the seditionist.
The statute of limitations on sedition is 5 years. Biden, in my opinion, must replace Garland ASAP! If Biden does not replace Garland, I would have to conclude, that he is part of the insurrection. A corporatist and a good Catholic boy.
Brilliant !!!