This scenario isn’t just plausible: it’s probable. GOP-controlled states are already changing their state laws to allow for it, regardless of how their people vote
This minute Democrats should be looking to impeach Thomas, Coney Barrett and Kavanaugh for perjury during their confirmation hearings. I have contacted my representatives and thus far have received their typical wishy washy responses. I would like to hear Thom how else we are supposed to "plan for this?"
I support your question to Thom on this huge problem we CERTAINLY are facing. (Also, I'm renewing my passport, planning a move to ANY democratic nation that will accept me)
If I weren't in a profession I can't transfer outside the US I would be joining you. Although at some point that might be irrelevant. I hope Finland, Sweden, Denmark and Norway have room for several million Americans.
But you CAN transfer as a physician/DO. My ENT uncle transferred to Hawaii from a lucrative practice in Atlanta. I know, not outside the US. BUT states can be just as rigorous as other countries. THEY ALL need doctors. He had to take the exam again, and do surgery with another board certified surgeon there - BUT by the time he was less than halfway through that year, his "mentor" told him, "You don't need me here - except that I'm learning a lot from you. He also took care of all the opera singers who would visit for performances in Honolulu. YOU CAN DO THIS, DR. KAUFMAN!!!
Yes, my Canadian citizenship is looking mighty good right now - especially on "Canada Day", but I'm sure Thom would say that running away (like "despair") is not an option.
Which country would that be? Maybe you are wealthy enough to leave and get into a decent country, but seriously? Where to do that will take us ugly Americans. Particularly those of us who receive Social Security and retirement benefits under some form of government agency. We don't have much hope. And I don't speak French, German, Portugese (my first country choice) or even Spanish. And why would they take us? We have been utterly despicable to those who have attempted asylum or refuge in this country. We shall reap what we have sown.
Jul 2, 2022·edited Jul 2, 2022Liked by Thom Hartmann
I have a Washington Post subscription. An hour ago they put an article online that clarifies what Thom is warning about here, but it is a behind a paywall. It is in addition to the Washington Post article from yesterday that Thom mentioned here. But based on what Thom said above, and on tonight's Washington Post article I just read, here in my words is the horror we face:
1. The US Constitution ONLY mentions state LEGISLATURES as having the right to control election stuff.
2. If this is interpreted LITERALLY that means the state courts, the state laws, and the governors have NO say.
3. But the state courts and state laws in all the 50 states are the only things forcing the legislatures to honor the actual vote count rather than do whatever they want (submit fake electors).
4. Because they are thugs, in 2023, the right wing Supreme Court is PROBABLY going to do number 2 above.
5. That means they will be declaring it is PERFECTLY LEGAL for the corrupt swing state Republican legislatures to ignore their state courts and state laws, and override the actual voters and submit fake electors for the loser!
6. CHECKMATE! ...Democracy officially over! ...And democracy will be over in practice on Inauguration Day 2025, never to be regained, because unlimited gerrymandering as well as fake electors will also have been made perfectly legal, in ALL the Republican states that sent electors for the loser declared winner! They can gerrymander to the extreme until eternity, so permanent Republican minority rule will be set in stone!
In the red states, the National Guard is likely to occupy, turning public sentiment against the President and state government. Assuming state elections are held, Dems or a 3rd party would take over, reversing the 2028 elections.
In blue states, the governments would declare the sovereignty of democratic system. The National Guard will not occupy. Blue states could secede or declare limited sovereignty, like in the original Confederation of States. The most effective protest in my opinion would be to place all federal taxes in escrow. For example, California could decide if the Federal government were doing a needed service to California and release an amount to reasonably pay that service. If the military tried to occupy California, we would withhold all money for the military. If they discontinued Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, California would use the money to provide social services and health care for it's people.
It would be chaos, but I don't think a fascist takeover of all the states.
Dream on. I don't believe any of the Democrats anywhere would have the nerve or the balls to do any of those things. It will ultimately be when the gunmen lay down their weapons and not kill their fellow citizens and refuse to act that sanity might return. But at the cost of how many lives? or maybe, just maybe, our European allies will come to the rescue (I doubt it) as we did when Hitler was committing his (unknown the extent until discovery afterwards) crimes against so many.
And wouldn't any of those actions be considered insurrection, and have the military act against those states? Lucky you if you live in California. I happen to live in a purple state (dem gov/atty general/secty of state) but with an insane GQP legislature. We are in such deep, deep trouble, and many continue about their business as if nothing was wrong.
Wake up people. Also new truth network, check out MeidasTouch network. Follow them on youtube. Great truthful, objective reporting.
As Judiciary Chair, Biden coukd have kept Thomas off SCOTUS. Now, a quarter century on, Thomas will nullify Biden’s second term; psychopaths will reign supreme. It took Germany two suicidal wars to get free of its mass psychopathy. I’m afraid it would take us longer — because there is no external power that could or would make us do it.
No external power? China is already well prepared to ally w/ Putin for the big final match.
This of course will send End Times Evangelicals into orgastic throes of ecstasy, ‘caus Jesus be coming back to clean up the ashes of humanity that is beating rats with sticks to survive.
As I wrote eight months before the 2020 election, predicting that Trump would do what Bush considered trying twenty years earlier: author Thom Hartmann
Thus, through simple brute force, if Trump, Fox News and Limbaugh, et al, were too loudly claim that there was “voter fraud” in any or all of those states and succeed in casting doubts about the integrity of an election that would put a Democrat in the White House, the manufactured conflict could be resolved [in the House] and the election given to Trump by one or more state legislatures as Florida threatened to do in 2000.
Where you can torque a document, written for a world so different technologically from where we are now, to support aberrations to the intentions of the founders, what are we to do? System-change is in order, but how to get to that? We're better at understanding the problem than at coming up with solutions to the question I lead with: "If you ran, the world, what would you do?" Thom, why don't you open that question to us? How can we-the-people do an end-run around government to deal with changing our worldview to where we would care about each other as much as we care about ourselves, and how about collecting a dossier of what people who are good-hearted would do?
Thom still promotes capitalism, I believe. What we need is more socialism, and less capitalism. Capitalism is greed, and leads to inequality, injustice, and the accumulation of wealth and power upwards. This is proven. We can see it with our own eyes.
It's end stage capitalism where it's hung on past its due date. Nobody with their head on straight would argue with that. Best to not think in labels , though, for what to do. And I like my suggestion to Thom, to open a dialogue, but he isn't very open to suggestions.
The Supreme Court said it will consider making greater changes to our country. It will hear Moore v. Harper, a case about whether state legislatures alone have the power to set election rules. #Nondelegation #scotus @HC_Richardson #HCRichardson
There are a lot of moving parts to this scenario, not to mention so many legislatures in states that have all kinds of "personalities". Very complicated for the average person to sort through, in fact, that's exactly what the schemers are counting on.
They have been emphasizing that we are not a democracy---good way to groom people for what's next.
I like the money-flow angle Eric Lever proposed; it's what they might understand. Other than money, the Republican leadership is a damn-the-consequences bunch of fools.
It seems if we want to save our democratic rights, we need to create a democracy. We are in the same position as our founders. It took them a long time, it was bloody awful, but they did not give-up till they had a republic. Let's hope getting what we want will not require all that they risked and gave. Happy Independence Day!
This “nightmare” scenario sounds completely feasible to me and more than likely. I also believe that enforcement is another component the Fascists have gamed out.
Gestapo 2.0 police agencies such as DeSantis has already established (a company sized goon squad of “Election Fraud” state police) who will have targeted likely leaders of any resistance. That they will likely convert to militia backed death squads as we saw in the Portland trial run is also a given.
To tell you the truth, I really don’t think there are enough Americans who care enough about living in what amounts to a surveillance enforce fascist government.
Yes, it looks like Democracy will die like Norquist’s proverbial drowning of Grandma in the tub.
Time for a smile. Can you imagine the discussion inside the NaziRepublican Party about Thomas, a black man, protecting Lindsay Graham, a racist, from prosecution for crimes BOTH were neck deep in?
Unlikely, but I wouldn't bet against it. For certain, that is the plan, they are constantly discussing it. Some of my relatives who are NaziRepublican Party worshippers claim they are "arming up" for the revolution. They won't, their wives or mothers won't let them, but they are making a lot of noise.
I think after this blue tsunami we will protect voting. Surely congress can get THAT done in 2 years. Well, yes, they did fail to pass a women's rights bill in the 50 years since Roe gave states the right to limit women's freedom in return for allowing abortion.
Next, imagine a constitutional convention to re-write the US Constitution and to codify the 1980 Libertarian Party platform of David Koch. Next, imagine there have been additional SCOTUS decisions that totally eliminate the separation of church and state including ending Roe v Wade and mandating Christian prayer in all public gatherings.
The antidote to this nightmare is turning the spectators in our failing democracy into participants. In 2020, we had over 80 million spectators!!!
This minute Democrats should be looking to impeach Thomas, Coney Barrett and Kavanaugh for perjury during their confirmation hearings. I have contacted my representatives and thus far have received their typical wishy washy responses. I would like to hear Thom how else we are supposed to "plan for this?"
I support your question to Thom on this huge problem we CERTAINLY are facing. (Also, I'm renewing my passport, planning a move to ANY democratic nation that will accept me)
If I weren't in a profession I can't transfer outside the US I would be joining you. Although at some point that might be irrelevant. I hope Finland, Sweden, Denmark and Norway have room for several million Americans.
ALL good places.
Also, in Denmark most people there speak English - and you can learn!
But you CAN transfer as a physician/DO. My ENT uncle transferred to Hawaii from a lucrative practice in Atlanta. I know, not outside the US. BUT states can be just as rigorous as other countries. THEY ALL need doctors. He had to take the exam again, and do surgery with another board certified surgeon there - BUT by the time he was less than halfway through that year, his "mentor" told him, "You don't need me here - except that I'm learning a lot from you. He also took care of all the opera singers who would visit for performances in Honolulu. YOU CAN DO THIS, DR. KAUFMAN!!!
They don't, unless you ARE a professional or occupation that they need (like nurses, etc.). What about just us common folk? Nope. No room for us.
Yes, my Canadian citizenship is looking mighty good right now - especially on "Canada Day", but I'm sure Thom would say that running away (like "despair") is not an option.
Which country would that be? Maybe you are wealthy enough to leave and get into a decent country, but seriously? Where to do that will take us ugly Americans. Particularly those of us who receive Social Security and retirement benefits under some form of government agency. We don't have much hope. And I don't speak French, German, Portugese (my first country choice) or even Spanish. And why would they take us? We have been utterly despicable to those who have attempted asylum or refuge in this country. We shall reap what we have sown.
Restrictions on Judicial Review (AKA court stripping) is needed for a new act of congress to bar all this activity you are warning of.
I’d gladly forbid judicial review on EVERYTHING targeted by this Scotus.
I have a Washington Post subscription. An hour ago they put an article online that clarifies what Thom is warning about here, but it is a behind a paywall. It is in addition to the Washington Post article from yesterday that Thom mentioned here. But based on what Thom said above, and on tonight's Washington Post article I just read, here in my words is the horror we face:
1. The US Constitution ONLY mentions state LEGISLATURES as having the right to control election stuff.
2. If this is interpreted LITERALLY that means the state courts, the state laws, and the governors have NO say.
3. But the state courts and state laws in all the 50 states are the only things forcing the legislatures to honor the actual vote count rather than do whatever they want (submit fake electors).
4. Because they are thugs, in 2023, the right wing Supreme Court is PROBABLY going to do number 2 above.
5. That means they will be declaring it is PERFECTLY LEGAL for the corrupt swing state Republican legislatures to ignore their state courts and state laws, and override the actual voters and submit fake electors for the loser!
6. CHECKMATE! ...Democracy officially over! ...And democracy will be over in practice on Inauguration Day 2025, never to be regained, because unlimited gerrymandering as well as fake electors will also have been made perfectly legal, in ALL the Republican states that sent electors for the loser declared winner! They can gerrymander to the extreme until eternity, so permanent Republican minority rule will be set in stone!
OMG!!!
I totally agree that the scenario is probable.
The question is what happens after.
In the red states, the National Guard is likely to occupy, turning public sentiment against the President and state government. Assuming state elections are held, Dems or a 3rd party would take over, reversing the 2028 elections.
In blue states, the governments would declare the sovereignty of democratic system. The National Guard will not occupy. Blue states could secede or declare limited sovereignty, like in the original Confederation of States. The most effective protest in my opinion would be to place all federal taxes in escrow. For example, California could decide if the Federal government were doing a needed service to California and release an amount to reasonably pay that service. If the military tried to occupy California, we would withhold all money for the military. If they discontinued Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, California would use the money to provide social services and health care for it's people.
It would be chaos, but I don't think a fascist takeover of all the states.
Dream on. I don't believe any of the Democrats anywhere would have the nerve or the balls to do any of those things. It will ultimately be when the gunmen lay down their weapons and not kill their fellow citizens and refuse to act that sanity might return. But at the cost of how many lives? or maybe, just maybe, our European allies will come to the rescue (I doubt it) as we did when Hitler was committing his (unknown the extent until discovery afterwards) crimes against so many.
And wouldn't any of those actions be considered insurrection, and have the military act against those states? Lucky you if you live in California. I happen to live in a purple state (dem gov/atty general/secty of state) but with an insane GQP legislature. We are in such deep, deep trouble, and many continue about their business as if nothing was wrong.
Wake up people. Also new truth network, check out MeidasTouch network. Follow them on youtube. Great truthful, objective reporting.
As Judiciary Chair, Biden coukd have kept Thomas off SCOTUS. Now, a quarter century on, Thomas will nullify Biden’s second term; psychopaths will reign supreme. It took Germany two suicidal wars to get free of its mass psychopathy. I’m afraid it would take us longer — because there is no external power that could or would make us do it.
No external power? China is already well prepared to ally w/ Putin for the big final match.
This of course will send End Times Evangelicals into orgastic throes of ecstasy, ‘caus Jesus be coming back to clean up the ashes of humanity that is beating rats with sticks to survive.
I meant no democracy. Putin is himself a psychopath, and Xi is an autocrat.
Nicely stated!
“Proposal to teach slavery as 'involuntary relocation' sent to Texas education board.”
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/proposal-teach-slavery-involuntary-relocation-sent-texas-education-boa-rcna36273
As I wrote eight months before the 2020 election, predicting that Trump would do what Bush considered trying twenty years earlier: author Thom Hartmann
Thus, through simple brute force, if Trump, Fox News and Limbaugh, et al, were too loudly claim that there was “voter fraud” in any or all of those states and succeed in casting doubts about the integrity of an election that would put a Democrat in the White House, the manufactured conflict could be resolved [in the House] and the election given to Trump by one or more state legislatures as Florida threatened to do in 2000.
Yes, I recall the manufactured conflict.
Where you can torque a document, written for a world so different technologically from where we are now, to support aberrations to the intentions of the founders, what are we to do? System-change is in order, but how to get to that? We're better at understanding the problem than at coming up with solutions to the question I lead with: "If you ran, the world, what would you do?" Thom, why don't you open that question to us? How can we-the-people do an end-run around government to deal with changing our worldview to where we would care about each other as much as we care about ourselves, and how about collecting a dossier of what people who are good-hearted would do?
Thom still promotes capitalism, I believe. What we need is more socialism, and less capitalism. Capitalism is greed, and leads to inequality, injustice, and the accumulation of wealth and power upwards. This is proven. We can see it with our own eyes.
It's end stage capitalism where it's hung on past its due date. Nobody with their head on straight would argue with that. Best to not think in labels , though, for what to do. And I like my suggestion to Thom, to open a dialogue, but he isn't very open to suggestions.
What a freaking nightmare! Thom, I hope Democratic congressional members are listening to you and considering this. We need to stop this.
The Supreme Court said it will consider making greater changes to our country. It will hear Moore v. Harper, a case about whether state legislatures alone have the power to set election rules. #Nondelegation #scotus @HC_Richardson #HCRichardson
https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/june-30-2022?r=1lh5w&s=r&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
There are a lot of moving parts to this scenario, not to mention so many legislatures in states that have all kinds of "personalities". Very complicated for the average person to sort through, in fact, that's exactly what the schemers are counting on.
They have been emphasizing that we are not a democracy---good way to groom people for what's next.
I like the money-flow angle Eric Lever proposed; it's what they might understand. Other than money, the Republican leadership is a damn-the-consequences bunch of fools.
It seems if we want to save our democratic rights, we need to create a democracy. We are in the same position as our founders. It took them a long time, it was bloody awful, but they did not give-up till they had a republic. Let's hope getting what we want will not require all that they risked and gave. Happy Independence Day!
This “nightmare” scenario sounds completely feasible to me and more than likely. I also believe that enforcement is another component the Fascists have gamed out.
Gestapo 2.0 police agencies such as DeSantis has already established (a company sized goon squad of “Election Fraud” state police) who will have targeted likely leaders of any resistance. That they will likely convert to militia backed death squads as we saw in the Portland trial run is also a given.
To tell you the truth, I really don’t think there are enough Americans who care enough about living in what amounts to a surveillance enforce fascist government.
Yes, it looks like Democracy will die like Norquist’s proverbial drowning of Grandma in the tub.
Time for a smile. Can you imagine the discussion inside the NaziRepublican Party about Thomas, a black man, protecting Lindsay Graham, a racist, from prosecution for crimes BOTH were neck deep in?
Unlikely, but I wouldn't bet against it. For certain, that is the plan, they are constantly discussing it. Some of my relatives who are NaziRepublican Party worshippers claim they are "arming up" for the revolution. They won't, their wives or mothers won't let them, but they are making a lot of noise.
I think after this blue tsunami we will protect voting. Surely congress can get THAT done in 2 years. Well, yes, they did fail to pass a women's rights bill in the 50 years since Roe gave states the right to limit women's freedom in return for allowing abortion.
Next, imagine a constitutional convention to re-write the US Constitution and to codify the 1980 Libertarian Party platform of David Koch. Next, imagine there have been additional SCOTUS decisions that totally eliminate the separation of church and state including ending Roe v Wade and mandating Christian prayer in all public gatherings.
The antidote to this nightmare is turning the spectators in our failing democracy into participants. In 2020, we had over 80 million spectators!!!
https://www.opednews.com/articles/Authoritarian-Domination-b-by-Charles-Hailey-Authoritarian-Personality_Authoritarianism-220530-734.html