It’s past time for the fossil fuel industry to face the same type of courtroom reckoning the tobacco industry did in the late 1990s and Alex Jones faced yesterday
All you say here, Thom, is absolutely accurate and true. However, I am old enough to remember the gas-rationing days during President Jimmy Carter's time in office and we (the USA at least) had a wake-up call regarding our great dependence on oil & gas--especially the foreign variety. We as consumers had choices--and we became well aware of that fact. But then Ronald Reagan stepped into the White House...and suddenly we as a country had complete amnesia about our wake-up call. We resorted to bigger & "better" gas-guzzling SUV's and monster trucks whose MPG's decreased greatly--not increased. In 2015 I found my dream car on Craigslist, took a Greyhound bus to Portland, OR (your city, Thom), and bought a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid. I found it was advertised brand-new as getting 50+ mpg...and hoped for at least 40. To my surprise, to this day it's still getting very close to 50 mpg--even with my mountain-home driving. It is the smartest, most economical, least polluting, least gas-consuming car I've ever owned in my 75 years. And the one question I haven't been able to answer is this: Why didn't we Americans fall absolutely in love with such a vehicle way back when this car came out in 2003? Can you imagine what a terrific stepping stone hybrids like this would have been for everyone while we weaned ourselves from foreign oil, cut emissions, and developed EV's & transitioned to them? I think we need to stop pointing the finger so much to "others"--even gas & oil companies--and wean our minds and choices from their products by choosing much more efficient vehicles...especially now that EV's are becoming affordable. Yes, climate change is real--and too often these days devastating. We consumers need to accept partial responsibility for THAT fact because, in my opinion, we really blew a great opportunity to really cut our consumption when we had our first big wake-up call some 45 years ago.
Well said, my friend. At 70 myself, I recall the exact conditions you're talking about. Thom is absolutely right, we need to hold the fossil fuel industry accountable, particularly now that they are price-gouging us to death and causing a manufactured inflation while reaping ungodly and wholly undeserved profits. Robert Reich points out that this, and not wage pressures or supply chain issues, is the real cause of inflation. But, as you say, we also, as a nation, must hold ourselves to account for being led around by the nose by the "Get out and spend, America! The bigger, the better!" voices of laissez-faire capitalism, our TRUE national religion. We ultimately cannot blame "the Man" for lying to us. We KNEW it was a lie, and chose to go along with it, anyway, so we could keep up our toys and consumer-driven lifestyles. Every time I hear analysts talking about "consumer confidence" as an indicator of our economic health, I want to hurl! The TRUE indicator of a healthy economy would be that consumers are spending LESS and saving MORE. And I salute your paeon to hybrid technology, which truly was a revolutionary step in the right direction. Would that we'd had a government with the will and backbone to mandate that all vehicles employ that technology, at least while transitioning to fossil fuel-free technologies.
My wife rented a Rogue hybrid to drive in Texas this week. She hates it. She can't keep the air conditioning running in 90 degree heat, everything stops when the car isn't moving. She can't turn the radio on at all.
I reminded her that when we bought our van, of course we looked at American vans because they are more reliable and far cheaper to own, and then we looked at Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Kia. The Kia and Toyota have incompetent lying local dealers, so we crossed them off even though we liked both. Honda was OK, but the nearest dealer to us is 150 miles away. The Nissan was really interesting, but even the Nissan salesman couldn't figure out how to turn on the radio. The service manager couldn't figure it out either. We gave up on the radio and decided to give it a run. We couldn't figure out how to get the AC on either. When we say how to start the car, we left, as there was no way starting the car had to be that complex.
My point is Honda made some great hybrids, but then we have Prius. I rented a Prius for our daughter once. It was February and she had a baby so I went out to warm up the car. No way to do it, but while trying, I confused the computer and NOTHING worked. I have seen this before, all you do is disconnect the battery and reset the computer. Not with a Prius, there is just one battery that starts the engine and powers the drive motor. I finally had to take apart the 400VDC battery on a brand new Prius and lift the positive cable, which drew a 3 inch arc when I did it BAM, FLASH. I grabbed my welding helmet and reconnected it. BAM FLASH again, but the computer was reset and I could start the car. I got out my camping stove and fired it up in the car to warm it up.
I won't buy any electric car that doesn't have the ability to safely reset the computer. Computers lock up, not all and not all the time, but Murphy controls when and where.
Sounds like you've hit all the speed-bumps on our road to an EV future! Sorry to hear this. I've gone with the tried-&-true older technology of the Honda hybrid--a very reliable gas engine and the limited use of a big battery behind the back seat. I also found that Prius doesn't make a manual transmission and I needed one for my mountain-home driving. This 2003 hybrid also shuts off when at a stop--unless the A/C is on; then it doesn't shut off. No problem with the radio staying on....and just the old key-in-the-ignition-slot to start up. Perhaps you just happened to get some "lemons"? I hope you don't give up on the more efficient stuff !
No lemons, and I'm an Electrical Engineer who has pondered making my own hybrid since 1970.
My point is that electric cars are not all the same. If you simply buy electric, you stand the same chance of being screwed as simply buying gasoline. A friend of mine loves his fancy BMW. He spends $3,000 a year on scheduled maintenance. I spend $150 on my American cars. I always choose my purchase specifically from the cars with lots of data showing low ownership cost. He pays $20 to fill his tires with 95% nitrogen, I fill my tires with 70% nitrogen (air) for free. Yeah, I do have to add air when it gets cold, which I also do with free 70% nitrogen that exists wherever I can breathe. I check my tires monthly to look for damage, so adding air once a year is trivial.
He was ecstatic when he drove over a muffler, destroyed one of his special run-flat tires, and found a used tire for only $700 and got it mounted and balanced and filled with 100% nitrogen for another $150. I get a flat or two a year because I live in the forest down miles of gravel roads, so far nothing I couldn't plug for 25 cents, but if I shred one of my tires, I'll buy a new one for $150, balanced and installed. I also only buy cars that use tires many cars use, because that drives cost down.
My experience with Nissans is one car that I couldn't figure out the radio even with the manual. For a living, they fly me first class all over the world to get automated systems losing $400 a minute back running, so I'm not tech-dumb. My wife is, she's "immune to technology" and struggles to use anything complex, but she's far from alone.
My point is, electric isn't automatically good. Personally, I wouldn't buy a Tesla, not after I saw them put the batteries in the floor. I drive a lot in mountains and other areas that are heavily salted. The Prius battery pack I disassembled was under the hood, safe from salt spray. You say your Honda's pack is under the seat, also safe, but a battery pack that mounts to the floor from BELOW - I cannot count the times I've replaced equipment the seals failed to keep salt water out of.
OK< while on this rant, let's look at efficiency and cost. Cost matters. The world has more methane than it can ever consume, and methane is being made all the time. Exxon Mobil says that their Exmouth gas field is so large and dry that it's essentially zero cost methane. With solar power, we can strip the carbon from methane and have nearly zero cost fuel. The carbon we remove is the reason chemical farming destroys soil. In 60 years, almost all farmland will no longer be able to grow crops. We are ignoring this because it's agribusiness, we have no leverage, but they just walk away and buy elsewhere, maybe burn down a forest. This carbon can go into that soil and make it black and friable again. Carbon "sucks up" minerals and holds them where plant roots can get to them, we WANT black soil. If you read the excellent book "1491", they've found patches of land in the Amazon that are incredibly fertile, remember Amazon land has all nutrients leached out. Some local folks thousands of years ago tilled charcoal into their soil, and it's still fertile today. We can have zero emissions almost free fuel that also recovers our farmland. Electric is great, but I really like free zero emissions fuel that saves agriculture.
Wow!! Sorry for all your difficulties! Still, I know at least a dozen Prius owners, and they all love their cars. I've never heard of such problems from any of them.
Yeah, well for a living, before I retired, VPs and CEOs used to fly me business class all over the planet, where I'd quickly fix processes losing $400 a minute, and I'd teach others how to not stop the machinery.
The reason I was so "brilliant" was pretty much every way you could screw up a bullet proof process, I'd done at least 3 times.
I seriously doubt that normal people could screw up a Prius, but I have this rare talent............
Once again, it's about how our brains work. From your BBC link: "This ideological divide has had far-reaching consequences. Polls conducted in May 2020 showed that just 22% of Americans who vote Republican believed climate change is man-made, compared with 72% of Democrats." That's in 2020 for Christ's sake!
I just want to add to the discussion on who drives what. I watched the creeps from the oil industry testify with the creeps from the car manufacturers in front of Congress. Simply put, they tried to act like they worked together to give the public what it wants to drive and clean fuels for those vehicles. I call BS! Neither industry cares about that. They build the BIG ones to keep sucking gas while trying to convince mom and pop their responsibility is to get an SUV to transport kids, dogs, and groceries. They try to equate macho with a big-ass-gas-sucking truck. Propaganda and collusion between those industries has set us back 50 years on the existing climate emergency.
It was all done on purpose---the big cars and trucks. We had to force the CAFE standards, and we had to fight the Republicans to do that. All along people on a budget have wanted small economical vehicles as well as hybrids. Now they want an affordable electric car they should have had nearly 30 years ago.
Same story as always, Republicans learn when the flood, tornado, hurricane, or fire takes away their home. Fossil fuels were a wonder, till we found out it will be a wonder if anyone survives the effect they have had. Make 'em pay for not stopping when they knew. Great Report as always, Thom.
Regarding your P. S., what is the name of the bill Congressman Mark Pocan announced? Once I know the name, I can contact my members of Congress. I agree with you that eliminating the "Medicare" name from the Advantage Plans is a big deal!
I like the perspective you have, John--especially that "laissez-faire capitalism" is our "our TRUE religion." We've gone overboard, eh? And now the bills are coming due...in terms of climate change,
natural disasters, high gas prices, etc. I am a bit surprised---and perhaps still a bit to naive--that our leaders in power have not renewed the several-times-used Windfall Profits Tax (as Thom has repeatedly pointed out on his show) right after Putin invaded Ukraine and drove up gas prices worldwide. It was a no-brainer that this would contribute to inflation, especially with our "disaster capitalists" working full-time here in the States. Thanks again !
We have today something similar to what the tobacco companies did - it's called the World Health Organization. Their product is "fear". We're all expected to fall in line with this panel of "experts", despite the fact that their methods are fear and panic-based.
I'd argue that the WHO puts out solid data and research, which the media and governments toss as "boring" and spread the fear and panic they depend on to keep citizens from realizing how corrupt and incompetent they are. But yes, spreading fear is great to start a fire, but fear itself won't sustain a fire. People quickly adjust and say "Oh well, smallpox can't be cured".
After reading your in-depth analysis of the mechanical & electrical problems you've encountered in your vehicles, I have to agree with you that these were not mere "lemons." They were more in the line of "speed bumps" by not having solved or avoided problems that need not occur...yeh? I also agree that outrageously expensive & unneeded "solutions" to some of these problems don't make sense / cents! in our current economy....of "retired persons"? That is definitely my first and bottom line. No, all-electric is not "automatically good"....as I've found true about any new item produced in our society. I do hope the "bugs" are worked out in short order so that we can get off fossil fuels, save our planet, and stiff Putin & Saudi Arabia. Do you consult with any of the EV manufacturers? You seem very knowledgeable. Best of luck into the future....for us all !
I worked in oil many years. Something most articles overlook is that oil companies buy and sell each other and their reserves ALL THE TIME.
Every case of serious pollution I've seen was done by "rogues" who got in trouble and sold off the reserves to other oil companies. Punishing Chevron for something done by a different company 20 years ago is pointless, we can't change the past. What we need to do is regulate oil FROM DAY ONE. Norway did exactly that. Norwegian oil companies are very green, but not because they WANTED to be green, because the people of Norway insisted that the government of Norway educate the children of Norway to not be easily fooled.
All you say here, Thom, is absolutely accurate and true. However, I am old enough to remember the gas-rationing days during President Jimmy Carter's time in office and we (the USA at least) had a wake-up call regarding our great dependence on oil & gas--especially the foreign variety. We as consumers had choices--and we became well aware of that fact. But then Ronald Reagan stepped into the White House...and suddenly we as a country had complete amnesia about our wake-up call. We resorted to bigger & "better" gas-guzzling SUV's and monster trucks whose MPG's decreased greatly--not increased. In 2015 I found my dream car on Craigslist, took a Greyhound bus to Portland, OR (your city, Thom), and bought a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid. I found it was advertised brand-new as getting 50+ mpg...and hoped for at least 40. To my surprise, to this day it's still getting very close to 50 mpg--even with my mountain-home driving. It is the smartest, most economical, least polluting, least gas-consuming car I've ever owned in my 75 years. And the one question I haven't been able to answer is this: Why didn't we Americans fall absolutely in love with such a vehicle way back when this car came out in 2003? Can you imagine what a terrific stepping stone hybrids like this would have been for everyone while we weaned ourselves from foreign oil, cut emissions, and developed EV's & transitioned to them? I think we need to stop pointing the finger so much to "others"--even gas & oil companies--and wean our minds and choices from their products by choosing much more efficient vehicles...especially now that EV's are becoming affordable. Yes, climate change is real--and too often these days devastating. We consumers need to accept partial responsibility for THAT fact because, in my opinion, we really blew a great opportunity to really cut our consumption when we had our first big wake-up call some 45 years ago.
Well said, my friend. At 70 myself, I recall the exact conditions you're talking about. Thom is absolutely right, we need to hold the fossil fuel industry accountable, particularly now that they are price-gouging us to death and causing a manufactured inflation while reaping ungodly and wholly undeserved profits. Robert Reich points out that this, and not wage pressures or supply chain issues, is the real cause of inflation. But, as you say, we also, as a nation, must hold ourselves to account for being led around by the nose by the "Get out and spend, America! The bigger, the better!" voices of laissez-faire capitalism, our TRUE national religion. We ultimately cannot blame "the Man" for lying to us. We KNEW it was a lie, and chose to go along with it, anyway, so we could keep up our toys and consumer-driven lifestyles. Every time I hear analysts talking about "consumer confidence" as an indicator of our economic health, I want to hurl! The TRUE indicator of a healthy economy would be that consumers are spending LESS and saving MORE. And I salute your paeon to hybrid technology, which truly was a revolutionary step in the right direction. Would that we'd had a government with the will and backbone to mandate that all vehicles employ that technology, at least while transitioning to fossil fuel-free technologies.
My wife rented a Rogue hybrid to drive in Texas this week. She hates it. She can't keep the air conditioning running in 90 degree heat, everything stops when the car isn't moving. She can't turn the radio on at all.
I reminded her that when we bought our van, of course we looked at American vans because they are more reliable and far cheaper to own, and then we looked at Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Kia. The Kia and Toyota have incompetent lying local dealers, so we crossed them off even though we liked both. Honda was OK, but the nearest dealer to us is 150 miles away. The Nissan was really interesting, but even the Nissan salesman couldn't figure out how to turn on the radio. The service manager couldn't figure it out either. We gave up on the radio and decided to give it a run. We couldn't figure out how to get the AC on either. When we say how to start the car, we left, as there was no way starting the car had to be that complex.
My point is Honda made some great hybrids, but then we have Prius. I rented a Prius for our daughter once. It was February and she had a baby so I went out to warm up the car. No way to do it, but while trying, I confused the computer and NOTHING worked. I have seen this before, all you do is disconnect the battery and reset the computer. Not with a Prius, there is just one battery that starts the engine and powers the drive motor. I finally had to take apart the 400VDC battery on a brand new Prius and lift the positive cable, which drew a 3 inch arc when I did it BAM, FLASH. I grabbed my welding helmet and reconnected it. BAM FLASH again, but the computer was reset and I could start the car. I got out my camping stove and fired it up in the car to warm it up.
I won't buy any electric car that doesn't have the ability to safely reset the computer. Computers lock up, not all and not all the time, but Murphy controls when and where.
Sounds like you've hit all the speed-bumps on our road to an EV future! Sorry to hear this. I've gone with the tried-&-true older technology of the Honda hybrid--a very reliable gas engine and the limited use of a big battery behind the back seat. I also found that Prius doesn't make a manual transmission and I needed one for my mountain-home driving. This 2003 hybrid also shuts off when at a stop--unless the A/C is on; then it doesn't shut off. No problem with the radio staying on....and just the old key-in-the-ignition-slot to start up. Perhaps you just happened to get some "lemons"? I hope you don't give up on the more efficient stuff !
No lemons, and I'm an Electrical Engineer who has pondered making my own hybrid since 1970.
My point is that electric cars are not all the same. If you simply buy electric, you stand the same chance of being screwed as simply buying gasoline. A friend of mine loves his fancy BMW. He spends $3,000 a year on scheduled maintenance. I spend $150 on my American cars. I always choose my purchase specifically from the cars with lots of data showing low ownership cost. He pays $20 to fill his tires with 95% nitrogen, I fill my tires with 70% nitrogen (air) for free. Yeah, I do have to add air when it gets cold, which I also do with free 70% nitrogen that exists wherever I can breathe. I check my tires monthly to look for damage, so adding air once a year is trivial.
He was ecstatic when he drove over a muffler, destroyed one of his special run-flat tires, and found a used tire for only $700 and got it mounted and balanced and filled with 100% nitrogen for another $150. I get a flat or two a year because I live in the forest down miles of gravel roads, so far nothing I couldn't plug for 25 cents, but if I shred one of my tires, I'll buy a new one for $150, balanced and installed. I also only buy cars that use tires many cars use, because that drives cost down.
My experience with Nissans is one car that I couldn't figure out the radio even with the manual. For a living, they fly me first class all over the world to get automated systems losing $400 a minute back running, so I'm not tech-dumb. My wife is, she's "immune to technology" and struggles to use anything complex, but she's far from alone.
My point is, electric isn't automatically good. Personally, I wouldn't buy a Tesla, not after I saw them put the batteries in the floor. I drive a lot in mountains and other areas that are heavily salted. The Prius battery pack I disassembled was under the hood, safe from salt spray. You say your Honda's pack is under the seat, also safe, but a battery pack that mounts to the floor from BELOW - I cannot count the times I've replaced equipment the seals failed to keep salt water out of.
OK< while on this rant, let's look at efficiency and cost. Cost matters. The world has more methane than it can ever consume, and methane is being made all the time. Exxon Mobil says that their Exmouth gas field is so large and dry that it's essentially zero cost methane. With solar power, we can strip the carbon from methane and have nearly zero cost fuel. The carbon we remove is the reason chemical farming destroys soil. In 60 years, almost all farmland will no longer be able to grow crops. We are ignoring this because it's agribusiness, we have no leverage, but they just walk away and buy elsewhere, maybe burn down a forest. This carbon can go into that soil and make it black and friable again. Carbon "sucks up" minerals and holds them where plant roots can get to them, we WANT black soil. If you read the excellent book "1491", they've found patches of land in the Amazon that are incredibly fertile, remember Amazon land has all nutrients leached out. Some local folks thousands of years ago tilled charcoal into their soil, and it's still fertile today. We can have zero emissions almost free fuel that also recovers our farmland. Electric is great, but I really like free zero emissions fuel that saves agriculture.
Wow!! Sorry for all your difficulties! Still, I know at least a dozen Prius owners, and they all love their cars. I've never heard of such problems from any of them.
Yeah, well for a living, before I retired, VPs and CEOs used to fly me business class all over the planet, where I'd quickly fix processes losing $400 a minute, and I'd teach others how to not stop the machinery.
The reason I was so "brilliant" was pretty much every way you could screw up a bullet proof process, I'd done at least 3 times.
I seriously doubt that normal people could screw up a Prius, but I have this rare talent............
Once again, it's about how our brains work. From your BBC link: "This ideological divide has had far-reaching consequences. Polls conducted in May 2020 showed that just 22% of Americans who vote Republican believed climate change is man-made, compared with 72% of Democrats." That's in 2020 for Christ's sake!
I just want to add to the discussion on who drives what. I watched the creeps from the oil industry testify with the creeps from the car manufacturers in front of Congress. Simply put, they tried to act like they worked together to give the public what it wants to drive and clean fuels for those vehicles. I call BS! Neither industry cares about that. They build the BIG ones to keep sucking gas while trying to convince mom and pop their responsibility is to get an SUV to transport kids, dogs, and groceries. They try to equate macho with a big-ass-gas-sucking truck. Propaganda and collusion between those industries has set us back 50 years on the existing climate emergency.
It was all done on purpose---the big cars and trucks. We had to force the CAFE standards, and we had to fight the Republicans to do that. All along people on a budget have wanted small economical vehicles as well as hybrids. Now they want an affordable electric car they should have had nearly 30 years ago.
Same story as always, Republicans learn when the flood, tornado, hurricane, or fire takes away their home. Fossil fuels were a wonder, till we found out it will be a wonder if anyone survives the effect they have had. Make 'em pay for not stopping when they knew. Great Report as always, Thom.
Regarding your P. S., what is the name of the bill Congressman Mark Pocan announced? Once I know the name, I can contact my members of Congress. I agree with you that eliminating the "Medicare" name from the Advantage Plans is a big deal!
I like the perspective you have, John--especially that "laissez-faire capitalism" is our "our TRUE religion." We've gone overboard, eh? And now the bills are coming due...in terms of climate change,
natural disasters, high gas prices, etc. I am a bit surprised---and perhaps still a bit to naive--that our leaders in power have not renewed the several-times-used Windfall Profits Tax (as Thom has repeatedly pointed out on his show) right after Putin invaded Ukraine and drove up gas prices worldwide. It was a no-brainer that this would contribute to inflation, especially with our "disaster capitalists" working full-time here in the States. Thanks again !
We have today something similar to what the tobacco companies did - it's called the World Health Organization. Their product is "fear". We're all expected to fall in line with this panel of "experts", despite the fact that their methods are fear and panic-based.
I'd argue that the WHO puts out solid data and research, which the media and governments toss as "boring" and spread the fear and panic they depend on to keep citizens from realizing how corrupt and incompetent they are. But yes, spreading fear is great to start a fire, but fear itself won't sustain a fire. People quickly adjust and say "Oh well, smallpox can't be cured".
After reading your in-depth analysis of the mechanical & electrical problems you've encountered in your vehicles, I have to agree with you that these were not mere "lemons." They were more in the line of "speed bumps" by not having solved or avoided problems that need not occur...yeh? I also agree that outrageously expensive & unneeded "solutions" to some of these problems don't make sense / cents! in our current economy....of "retired persons"? That is definitely my first and bottom line. No, all-electric is not "automatically good"....as I've found true about any new item produced in our society. I do hope the "bugs" are worked out in short order so that we can get off fossil fuels, save our planet, and stiff Putin & Saudi Arabia. Do you consult with any of the EV manufacturers? You seem very knowledgeable. Best of luck into the future....for us all !
I worked in oil many years. Something most articles overlook is that oil companies buy and sell each other and their reserves ALL THE TIME.
Every case of serious pollution I've seen was done by "rogues" who got in trouble and sold off the reserves to other oil companies. Punishing Chevron for something done by a different company 20 years ago is pointless, we can't change the past. What we need to do is regulate oil FROM DAY ONE. Norway did exactly that. Norwegian oil companies are very green, but not because they WANTED to be green, because the people of Norway insisted that the government of Norway educate the children of Norway to not be easily fooled.