{EDIT: THIS CONVERSATION HAS BEEN AMENDED BELOW} }In many parts of the American South, after “forced integration,” white people stopped sending their kids to public schools . Those public schools, also, were in too many places NOT adequately supported by taxes from the local communities {indeed, in the North, we depend heavily but not en…
{EDIT: THIS CONVERSATION HAS BEEN AMENDED BELOW} }In many parts of the American South, after “forced integration,” white people stopped sending their kids to public schools . Those public schools, also, were in too many places NOT adequately supported by taxes from the local communities {indeed, in the North, we depend heavily but not entirely on property taxes, a flawed and regressive system, but one that puts public money from a community into its schools }. After integration, many parts of the South did not levy a property tax at all and did not put much money at all into the public schools that were required to accept all students, white, Black, Asian, et al.
My family who lived in Louisianna decades ago said to me, “White people send their kids to private schools. “ They spend what they would on property tax to send their kids to Montessori or other private schools. The private schools don’t accept all comers — only white kids.
This business of “vouchers” is just a continuation of something they’ve been doing all along, and a way to extend it to every state in the union. That’s the look of it from where I sit.
Well to do white folk maybe send their kids to public schools, but most folk can't afford to pay property taxes and send their kids to private schools.
Payment of property taxes is not discretionary, at least not in the states that I owned homes in, and in fact a mortgage payment usually includes taxes and insurance, unless you opt out.
Don't pay your taxes and you get a visit from the reeve of the shire,with paper in hand, and you find your home repossessed.
{EDIT__SEE AMENDED INFO BELOW!} Read what I wrote — I said some Southern states did not even have a property tax, which is one central source of funds for local schools in all the states I have lived in, though state and federal revenue sharing always added to it, as well — In Southern states after Brown v Board of Ed, small private schools sprang up and white families sent their kids there and paid a small fee, and public schools where kids from minority communities went were abysmally starved of funds. There weren’t any property taxes making everyone contribute to their own public schools… Demanding that we establish a country-wide system of publicly-funded “charter schools” that now TAKES money from the public purse directed to schools and provide it as “vouchers” for schools that don’t accept all comers … sounds like trying to spread the old racist option to the whole country to me.
I never heard of a state that didn' have a property tax, Google sez: Sadly for investors, the answer is no, there are no states without property tax. This is because property tax is a useful way for local governments to fund public services such as schools, fire and police departments, infrastructure and libraries.
Actually property taxes are levied by the counties, the counties are administrative organs of the state.
All states need to levy taxes to pay for public services, fire, police, roads, bridges.
I agree about Charter Schools and vouchers, I don't want my property taxes going to Christian schools either.
BTW I did read what you wrote. I found it unbelievable that there were any states that didn't have a property tax for reasons cited above., even in the south. A state income tax is not going to pay for a city's fire and police department, and some states don't have an income tax. (Mine doesn't), sales and excise taxes won't do either.
YES, my statement was too absolute. I do have relatives who lived in the South who didn’t pay property taxes. Checking back, it was based on age and income level.
My main point — that taxes are the basis for paying for schools {though taxes are almost never enough to cover, and need to be supplemented by revenue sharing of other ways to supplement local taxes to cover school costs, or the schools are abysmally inadequate} still stands. My family who had children in public schools paid {fairly low} private tuitions to keep their kids out of the ABYSMALLY poorly supported public schools. My family members were not trying to avoid integration — just trying to avoid really bad schools. When they moved North, they put their kids in public schools that were better served by our communities.
So, the tax rates and supports of schools were massively deficient {this was decades ago, and I can’t speak for whether it’s gotten any better}.
The primary point again is that siphoning public money to charter schools is a way to damage public education, not to mention re-segregate on the basis of things like race and class.
But you are mostly right — since the country instituted both property AND real estate taxes in most places {a few locales were exempt} just about everyone {except the vastly poor} have paid some amount of $ for property or real estate tax, though a many states have had “exemptions” that allowed homeowners not to pay much, if anything.
As I understand it property taxes are one thing, in Washington state, they are taxes on property, specifically the state determined value of vehicles, but have been since been revoked by a referendum.
My real estate taxes are called property taxes, based on an evaluation of my property by the county assessor, and are updated yearly by a computer program. Pretty dam high where I live, but am not bitchin because they pay for fire and sheriff, EMS, schools and roads that I use.
I know that property taxes adversely affect poor neighborhoods, as a source of school funding, poor neighborhoods, low value property, low taxes, piss poor education.
I can't imagine any poor family not owning property, much less not paying property taxes. My county has a formula for reducing taxes for old farts like moi, but they also have an income limit and I don't qualify., again not bitchin.
I can't wrap my head around a poor person owning property and not paying taxes. My fathers family lived in a company owned house in SW Arkansas, and in WWII moved to company owned (Texaco) homes in west Texas, They didn't pay property taxes, renters do, indirectly, via rental payments.
I totally agree about Charter Schools and Vouchers, they are a tool to dumbing down America and producing religious, barely literates.
I mentioned on another post, that at least one major airline sends their planes to El Salvador for scheduled maintenance. The crews that work on them don't speak English,and the tech manuals are kept in the office. They are trained like Henry Fords production line, to do one or two tasks, and are paid a pittance.
So long as the job or task does not require finesse, judgement, skill of any sort or ongoing quality control, a trained chimpanzee is all that is required.
It has it's drawbacks, back in 1960, newly wed, I bought a 1956 Ford, I kept hearing a rattle in the passenger door. Finally dismantled it and found a whiskey bottle.
People on the production line were numb with repetitive chores, and drank on duty, evidently they hid their liquor bottles in the vehicles they were assembling.
A great many customs and laws in our country are …. mmmmmm … shall we say, not uniformly applied. I personally think “renting” the homes we “own” from our towns in the majority {but not all} of US municipalities — which municipalities can repossess said homes, if we don’t pony up, regardless of our ability to pay up — is less than an optimal way to fund our society, but that’s basically what it comes down to, pretty much. In most places in this country, we can own a home until we can’t afford the taxes, and then we don’t own it any more … Definitely regressive …
Right pat lack of uniformity is built into our DNA. First each state was basically a sovereign country, with their own laws and customs, and united for the common weal and defense. The basic glue that holds us together is the Uniform Commercial Code https://www.uniformlaws.org/acts/ucc#:~:text=The%20Uniform%20Commercial%20Code%20(UCC,a%20uniformly%20adopted%20state%20law. taxation and defense . Yet each state has it's own laws and customs as regards governance, and that is what all of the disturbance in our society is about. Some states are quasi fasist, moving to pure fascist, Idaho is a good example.
The name of the most Northern (ultra right wing) is propsed to be Jefferson
Washington State is in essence two states, West of the Cascades is progressive, east of the Cascades is Alabama.
Pennsylvania aka Pennsyltucky is Pittsburgh in the West, Philadelphia in the East and Kentucky in between.
You can go state by state, except in the south and midwest and see the same. Some red states like Texas, Louisiiana and Georgia, have large diverse and blue population centers.
States, regions, cities have different customs depending on immigration waves, Germans settled in Wisconsin, Minnesota, as did Scandinavians, Boston a definite Irish influence and custom, New Yawk and New Joisey a large Italian and Jewish inflence. and customs
A culinary tour de force of America reveals a regions heritage and customs.
Interestingly my fathers family, in SE Arkansas, was acculturated by freed slaves. I called my grandparents Mammy and Pappy, the food that I love and that Mammy cooked is called soul food. In the 1870, 1880 census all of my family's neighbors were black. the 1890 census is lost to history because of a fire, from 1890 on, a carpet bagger named E S Crossett from Des Moines Iowa bought up all of the land, including the 160 acres homestead by my great grandfather, and built a saw mill, and segregation began.
Totally agree on what happens if you fail to pay taxes.
In post Edward I England, the barons and lesser nobility, were able to hold property in fee simple. (Fee is a tip off, it is feudal), we still hold our land in fee simple.
This device enabled barons to hold lands in perpetuity, pass them on to heirs, and prohibited the sovereign from dispossessing them on a whim and giving them on to a court favorite, which had been the practice. This device predates the Magna Carta.
There was a condition attached to fee simple. The holder had to pledge fealty, obey the sovereign, provide men and arms for his defense and pay his taxes.
If he failed, the sovereign would dispatch the reeve of the shire (sheriff) to collect taxes, and enforce the pledge and failing that dispossess the reneger.
The sheriff still performs the same age old duties, and that is his primary job, traffic stops and policing are revenue tasks and public policy (PR) tasks.
Taxes do keep going up, until the owners can no longer pay them and thus is dispossessed.
I lived in Philadelphia and there were a number of public parks, which had been estates, but the families got taxed out of the estates and gave them to the city for tax breaks.
In Redmond Washington , there is Marymoor Park, which once belonged to a wealthy family, same thing, Homesteaded by John Tosh in 1876, the site was later bought by James Clise (1855-1939), who turned it into a farm of world renown. In 1962, it became the first King County Park, and later the home of Marymoor Museum
I use to walk my cats there, and attended an outdoor Wllie Nelson and Peter, Paul and Mary concert there.
[AMENDED BELOW IN CONTINUED CONVERSATION]Read what I wrote — I said some Southern states did not even have a property tax, which is one central source of funds for local schools in all the states I have lived in, though state and federal revenue sharing always added to it, as well — In Southern states after Brown v Board of Ed, small private schools sprang up and white families sent their kids there and paid a small fee, and public schools where kids from minority communities went were abysmally starved of funds. There weren’t any property taxes in those states making everyone contribute to their own public schools… Demanding that we establish a country-wide system of publicly-funded “charter schools” that now TAKES money from the public purse directed to schools and provides it as “vouchers” for schools that don’t accept all comers … sounds like trying to spread the old racist option to the whole country to me.
Under "massive resistance" some districts did not offer free public education for several years after Little Rock. In VA, Prince William and Fauquier (pronounced fuck-you) within commuting distance from DC.
Among other things I don't list in my CV, I am a graduate of the US Army Engineer school -- Fts. Belvoir and Leonard Wood. We made mudsills using raked soil fortified by rebar, filled by loads of "mud" a.k/a concrete (could bs sand or clay) carried by "Georgia buggies" a/k/a wheelbarrows. In Vietnam, when not in the field, we made hooches, latrines, over mudsills. Our sign: WETSU. "We eat this shit up!"
Reading what Mr. Hartmann wrote, one hears the echos of the old British culture {and certainly true of others countries, as well, but I hear it with a British accent} of people who knew “their place,” and had not the temerity to dare stepping out of it. The royals, the lords and ladies and members of the court, the shop people, the serfs, all well and staying “where they belong.”
{EDIT: THIS CONVERSATION HAS BEEN AMENDED BELOW} }In many parts of the American South, after “forced integration,” white people stopped sending their kids to public schools . Those public schools, also, were in too many places NOT adequately supported by taxes from the local communities {indeed, in the North, we depend heavily but not entirely on property taxes, a flawed and regressive system, but one that puts public money from a community into its schools }. After integration, many parts of the South did not levy a property tax at all and did not put much money at all into the public schools that were required to accept all students, white, Black, Asian, et al.
My family who lived in Louisianna decades ago said to me, “White people send their kids to private schools. “ They spend what they would on property tax to send their kids to Montessori or other private schools. The private schools don’t accept all comers — only white kids.
This business of “vouchers” is just a continuation of something they’ve been doing all along, and a way to extend it to every state in the union. That’s the look of it from where I sit.
Well to do white folk maybe send their kids to public schools, but most folk can't afford to pay property taxes and send their kids to private schools.
Payment of property taxes is not discretionary, at least not in the states that I owned homes in, and in fact a mortgage payment usually includes taxes and insurance, unless you opt out.
Don't pay your taxes and you get a visit from the reeve of the shire,with paper in hand, and you find your home repossessed.
{EDIT__SEE AMENDED INFO BELOW!} Read what I wrote — I said some Southern states did not even have a property tax, which is one central source of funds for local schools in all the states I have lived in, though state and federal revenue sharing always added to it, as well — In Southern states after Brown v Board of Ed, small private schools sprang up and white families sent their kids there and paid a small fee, and public schools where kids from minority communities went were abysmally starved of funds. There weren’t any property taxes making everyone contribute to their own public schools… Demanding that we establish a country-wide system of publicly-funded “charter schools” that now TAKES money from the public purse directed to schools and provide it as “vouchers” for schools that don’t accept all comers … sounds like trying to spread the old racist option to the whole country to me.
I never heard of a state that didn' have a property tax, Google sez: Sadly for investors, the answer is no, there are no states without property tax. This is because property tax is a useful way for local governments to fund public services such as schools, fire and police departments, infrastructure and libraries.
Actually property taxes are levied by the counties, the counties are administrative organs of the state.
All states need to levy taxes to pay for public services, fire, police, roads, bridges.
I agree about Charter Schools and vouchers, I don't want my property taxes going to Christian schools either.
BTW I did read what you wrote. I found it unbelievable that there were any states that didn't have a property tax for reasons cited above., even in the south. A state income tax is not going to pay for a city's fire and police department, and some states don't have an income tax. (Mine doesn't), sales and excise taxes won't do either.
YES, my statement was too absolute. I do have relatives who lived in the South who didn’t pay property taxes. Checking back, it was based on age and income level.
My main point — that taxes are the basis for paying for schools {though taxes are almost never enough to cover, and need to be supplemented by revenue sharing of other ways to supplement local taxes to cover school costs, or the schools are abysmally inadequate} still stands. My family who had children in public schools paid {fairly low} private tuitions to keep their kids out of the ABYSMALLY poorly supported public schools. My family members were not trying to avoid integration — just trying to avoid really bad schools. When they moved North, they put their kids in public schools that were better served by our communities.
So, the tax rates and supports of schools were massively deficient {this was decades ago, and I can’t speak for whether it’s gotten any better}.
The primary point again is that siphoning public money to charter schools is a way to damage public education, not to mention re-segregate on the basis of things like race and class.
But you are mostly right — since the country instituted both property AND real estate taxes in most places {a few locales were exempt} just about everyone {except the vastly poor} have paid some amount of $ for property or real estate tax, though a many states have had “exemptions” that allowed homeowners not to pay much, if anything.
I stand corrected.
Curious as to where and just as important when.
As I understand it property taxes are one thing, in Washington state, they are taxes on property, specifically the state determined value of vehicles, but have been since been revoked by a referendum.
My real estate taxes are called property taxes, based on an evaluation of my property by the county assessor, and are updated yearly by a computer program. Pretty dam high where I live, but am not bitchin because they pay for fire and sheriff, EMS, schools and roads that I use.
I know that property taxes adversely affect poor neighborhoods, as a source of school funding, poor neighborhoods, low value property, low taxes, piss poor education.
I can't imagine any poor family not owning property, much less not paying property taxes. My county has a formula for reducing taxes for old farts like moi, but they also have an income limit and I don't qualify., again not bitchin.
I can't wrap my head around a poor person owning property and not paying taxes. My fathers family lived in a company owned house in SW Arkansas, and in WWII moved to company owned (Texaco) homes in west Texas, They didn't pay property taxes, renters do, indirectly, via rental payments.
I totally agree about Charter Schools and Vouchers, they are a tool to dumbing down America and producing religious, barely literates.
I mentioned on another post, that at least one major airline sends their planes to El Salvador for scheduled maintenance. The crews that work on them don't speak English,and the tech manuals are kept in the office. They are trained like Henry Fords production line, to do one or two tasks, and are paid a pittance.
So long as the job or task does not require finesse, judgement, skill of any sort or ongoing quality control, a trained chimpanzee is all that is required.
It has it's drawbacks, back in 1960, newly wed, I bought a 1956 Ford, I kept hearing a rattle in the passenger door. Finally dismantled it and found a whiskey bottle.
People on the production line were numb with repetitive chores, and drank on duty, evidently they hid their liquor bottles in the vehicles they were assembling.
A great many customs and laws in our country are …. mmmmmm … shall we say, not uniformly applied. I personally think “renting” the homes we “own” from our towns in the majority {but not all} of US municipalities — which municipalities can repossess said homes, if we don’t pony up, regardless of our ability to pay up — is less than an optimal way to fund our society, but that’s basically what it comes down to, pretty much. In most places in this country, we can own a home until we can’t afford the taxes, and then we don’t own it any more … Definitely regressive …
Right pat lack of uniformity is built into our DNA. First each state was basically a sovereign country, with their own laws and customs, and united for the common weal and defense. The basic glue that holds us together is the Uniform Commercial Code https://www.uniformlaws.org/acts/ucc#:~:text=The%20Uniform%20Commercial%20Code%20(UCC,a%20uniformly%20adopted%20state%20law. taxation and defense . Yet each state has it's own laws and customs as regards governance, and that is what all of the disturbance in our society is about. Some states are quasi fasist, moving to pure fascist, Idaho is a good example.
some are liberal and progressive, yet within each state are enclaves of different customs and values. California for all intents and purposes is three states. https://ballotpedia.org/California_Three_States_Initiative_(2018)/California
The name of the most Northern (ultra right wing) is propsed to be Jefferson
Washington State is in essence two states, West of the Cascades is progressive, east of the Cascades is Alabama.
Pennsylvania aka Pennsyltucky is Pittsburgh in the West, Philadelphia in the East and Kentucky in between.
You can go state by state, except in the south and midwest and see the same. Some red states like Texas, Louisiiana and Georgia, have large diverse and blue population centers.
States, regions, cities have different customs depending on immigration waves, Germans settled in Wisconsin, Minnesota, as did Scandinavians, Boston a definite Irish influence and custom, New Yawk and New Joisey a large Italian and Jewish inflence. and customs
A culinary tour de force of America reveals a regions heritage and customs.
Interestingly my fathers family, in SE Arkansas, was acculturated by freed slaves. I called my grandparents Mammy and Pappy, the food that I love and that Mammy cooked is called soul food. In the 1870, 1880 census all of my family's neighbors were black. the 1890 census is lost to history because of a fire, from 1890 on, a carpet bagger named E S Crossett from Des Moines Iowa bought up all of the land, including the 160 acres homestead by my great grandfather, and built a saw mill, and segregation began.
Totally agree on what happens if you fail to pay taxes.
In post Edward I England, the barons and lesser nobility, were able to hold property in fee simple. (Fee is a tip off, it is feudal), we still hold our land in fee simple.
This device enabled barons to hold lands in perpetuity, pass them on to heirs, and prohibited the sovereign from dispossessing them on a whim and giving them on to a court favorite, which had been the practice. This device predates the Magna Carta.
There was a condition attached to fee simple. The holder had to pledge fealty, obey the sovereign, provide men and arms for his defense and pay his taxes.
If he failed, the sovereign would dispatch the reeve of the shire (sheriff) to collect taxes, and enforce the pledge and failing that dispossess the reneger.
The sheriff still performs the same age old duties, and that is his primary job, traffic stops and policing are revenue tasks and public policy (PR) tasks.
Taxes do keep going up, until the owners can no longer pay them and thus is dispossessed.
I lived in Philadelphia and there were a number of public parks, which had been estates, but the families got taxed out of the estates and gave them to the city for tax breaks.
In Redmond Washington , there is Marymoor Park, which once belonged to a wealthy family, same thing, Homesteaded by John Tosh in 1876, the site was later bought by James Clise (1855-1939), who turned it into a farm of world renown. In 1962, it became the first King County Park, and later the home of Marymoor Museum
I use to walk my cats there, and attended an outdoor Wllie Nelson and Peter, Paul and Mary concert there.
[AMENDED BELOW IN CONTINUED CONVERSATION]Read what I wrote — I said some Southern states did not even have a property tax, which is one central source of funds for local schools in all the states I have lived in, though state and federal revenue sharing always added to it, as well — In Southern states after Brown v Board of Ed, small private schools sprang up and white families sent their kids there and paid a small fee, and public schools where kids from minority communities went were abysmally starved of funds. There weren’t any property taxes in those states making everyone contribute to their own public schools… Demanding that we establish a country-wide system of publicly-funded “charter schools” that now TAKES money from the public purse directed to schools and provides it as “vouchers” for schools that don’t accept all comers … sounds like trying to spread the old racist option to the whole country to me.
Under "massive resistance" some districts did not offer free public education for several years after Little Rock. In VA, Prince William and Fauquier (pronounced fuck-you) within commuting distance from DC.
Among other things I don't list in my CV, I am a graduate of the US Army Engineer school -- Fts. Belvoir and Leonard Wood. We made mudsills using raked soil fortified by rebar, filled by loads of "mud" a.k/a concrete (could bs sand or clay) carried by "Georgia buggies" a/k/a wheelbarrows. In Vietnam, when not in the field, we made hooches, latrines, over mudsills. Our sign: WETSU. "We eat this shit up!"
Reading what Mr. Hartmann wrote, one hears the echos of the old British culture {and certainly true of others countries, as well, but I hear it with a British accent} of people who knew “their place,” and had not the temerity to dare stepping out of it. The royals, the lords and ladies and members of the court, the shop people, the serfs, all well and staying “where they belong.”
Bleah!!