I think your characterization of generals has a lot has to do with the view from afar. Until you make O-5, all contact with the top brass is remote and trickle-down - often retranslated by several officers of lower rank. That creates a very distorted picture of leadership. Like you, my Navy career began at bootcamp, then later OCS. I ser…
I think your characterization of generals has a lot has to do with the view from afar. Until you make O-5, all contact with the top brass is remote and trickle-down - often retranslated by several officers of lower rank. That creates a very distorted picture of leadership. Like you, my Navy career began at bootcamp, then later OCS. I served an in-country tour in Rung Sat in the Saigon jungles, then another on the Vietnam coast as flagship navigator. In 1974, I became a "peace dividend" but stayed in the "active" reserves to make car payments while getting my psychology doctorate. At that stage of my Navy career, I shared your "careerist" stereotype of senior officers. But then I got a rare opportunity to sit in a room full of admirals on a regular basis, and my stereotype did a 180.
During my 3rd year on a med school faculty managing a psychiatry lab, the Navy SG called to invite me to return to active service to head up a huge Navywide study. That study was such a huge hit that I was asked to stay in uniform, and I soon I got my first Pentagon job on the personal staff of the Deputy Chief of Naval Operations overseeing his R&D programs. Within 6 months, he asked me to sit in on all board meetings as a consultant. Watching 8 admirals deal with policies, practices and scandals was an eye-opener. They were all very focused on doing the right thing by their people, and often asked me if we had any study results that might help inform changes to make things better for the troops. Almost monthly I was asked to commission new studies to help them with data-based decision-making. I only met a couple of rear admirals who fit the "careerists" stereotype, and they wound up retiring as Captains due to poor performance.
I too was shocked by Flynn as I had never worked with a 3-star as whacky as him. The personnel system is not perfect. As for the academies, two of my mentors were mustangs who were commissioned at Annapolis. One was CO of my first ship. The other was CO of the entire US Navy. Neither struck me as different from non-mustang officers. Your tale about Christian nationalist is quite troubling, but I am not sure how dominant their numbers are today. I retired in 2000 – not so current.
Bill, it is not so much defending one's group as it is about realizing that our views of the world are limited by personal exposure/experience. The world is full of jerks in every occupation or social group. I regularly asked mustang colleagues what changed their view of their career potential. Nearly always it came down to outgrowing neighborhood grooming. Socialization is subtle. As kids, we usually fail to notice that we grow up with values and beliefs similar to those of our friends and our/their parents. Due to capitalism, income usually homogenizes where we live and thus neighborhood attitudes. As a result, our choice of a worklife career path after high school often conforms to those most of our friends consider.
In the world of work, some people focus on just getting money and yes-sir-bossing as high up the organizational career ladder as ass-kissing will take them. Most of my colleagues along the way just did the best they could, and usually passed up the careerists because they focused on advancing the goals of the organization rather than self-promotion. COs often spot them and try to encourage them to look for work elsewhere. One careerist who outranked me, wanted my access to the Admiral, and tried to wangle replacing me. The chief of staff spotted it and derailed him by transferring him to the West Coast which motivated retirement on the spot - I guess to try to cheat his way to the top someplace else. Most organizations are self-correcting – at least to a point.
I had the unique chance to observe a promotion board for O-6’s. I was surprised how readily careerists were weeded out of promotions. By that stage in one’s career, the odds were that at least one promotion board member had served with every candidate. That added insights to any faint-praise double-speak in annual performance appraisals. Thing is, unless you have had a chance to see this sort of thing, it is easy to adopt peer stereotypes of the brass and view unpopular tasks as validation of those stereotypes.
Tom you do realize that your admonition about our views being reflective of our own experience, also pertains to you.
And it is also a fact that people whose identity is based on externalities are protective of those things that comprise their identity.
If I cast aspersions say on Christians, Muslims or Jews, a Christian, Muslim or Jew that reads my comment will experience a heart palpitation, and have a reaction.
A mustang who graduated from a service academy is a rarity, not as you seem to infer a common occurence.
And at best they would have achieved the rank of E-4, because of age. The average age is between 17 and 23, with 23 being the average age of a newly minted 2nd Lt.
I wouldn't consider an officer a mustang, unless they had NCO experience.
Then again I am projecting from personal Experience.
Then there are the Captain George W. Bush who was commissioned a 2d Lt by his father, the governor, upon graduation from basic military (enlisted) training and never even learned the minimum requirement of a commissioned officer.
But our point of disagreement Tom is that you expect more of officers especially 0-7 and above, than I.
And I base my opinon on proven behavior, like Generals Mike and Charles Flynn, and Stanley McChrystal and they are not anomalies at all.
We are two months away from finding out who is correct and who has mud on their face.
So far I am batting 1000 I predicted that Gaetz would withdraw his name from consideration, I also predict that he will be the Speaker of the House in th 119th congress. Trump will sure try and only some unforseen fluke will stop that from happening.
I think your characterization of generals has a lot has to do with the view from afar. Until you make O-5, all contact with the top brass is remote and trickle-down - often retranslated by several officers of lower rank. That creates a very distorted picture of leadership. Like you, my Navy career began at bootcamp, then later OCS. I served an in-country tour in Rung Sat in the Saigon jungles, then another on the Vietnam coast as flagship navigator. In 1974, I became a "peace dividend" but stayed in the "active" reserves to make car payments while getting my psychology doctorate. At that stage of my Navy career, I shared your "careerist" stereotype of senior officers. But then I got a rare opportunity to sit in a room full of admirals on a regular basis, and my stereotype did a 180.
During my 3rd year on a med school faculty managing a psychiatry lab, the Navy SG called to invite me to return to active service to head up a huge Navywide study. That study was such a huge hit that I was asked to stay in uniform, and I soon I got my first Pentagon job on the personal staff of the Deputy Chief of Naval Operations overseeing his R&D programs. Within 6 months, he asked me to sit in on all board meetings as a consultant. Watching 8 admirals deal with policies, practices and scandals was an eye-opener. They were all very focused on doing the right thing by their people, and often asked me if we had any study results that might help inform changes to make things better for the troops. Almost monthly I was asked to commission new studies to help them with data-based decision-making. I only met a couple of rear admirals who fit the "careerists" stereotype, and they wound up retiring as Captains due to poor performance.
I too was shocked by Flynn as I had never worked with a 3-star as whacky as him. The personnel system is not perfect. As for the academies, two of my mentors were mustangs who were commissioned at Annapolis. One was CO of my first ship. The other was CO of the entire US Navy. Neither struck me as different from non-mustang officers. Your tale about Christian nationalist is quite troubling, but I am not sure how dominant their numbers are today. I retired in 2000 – not so current.
Tom, it is a natural tendency to defend a group to which one belongs.. but not everyone is of that ilk.
You say you were shocked by Flynn, called him whacky.
Whacky is dismissive, he is not whacky but dangerous and how about his brother Charles, who enabled Jan 6th and got rewarded.
There are enough Dominionists and self serving careerists among officer ranks to raise concerns.
We will find out in two months won't we? Let's see what officers survive the purge and serve dear Leader.
Bill, it is not so much defending one's group as it is about realizing that our views of the world are limited by personal exposure/experience. The world is full of jerks in every occupation or social group. I regularly asked mustang colleagues what changed their view of their career potential. Nearly always it came down to outgrowing neighborhood grooming. Socialization is subtle. As kids, we usually fail to notice that we grow up with values and beliefs similar to those of our friends and our/their parents. Due to capitalism, income usually homogenizes where we live and thus neighborhood attitudes. As a result, our choice of a worklife career path after high school often conforms to those most of our friends consider.
In the world of work, some people focus on just getting money and yes-sir-bossing as high up the organizational career ladder as ass-kissing will take them. Most of my colleagues along the way just did the best they could, and usually passed up the careerists because they focused on advancing the goals of the organization rather than self-promotion. COs often spot them and try to encourage them to look for work elsewhere. One careerist who outranked me, wanted my access to the Admiral, and tried to wangle replacing me. The chief of staff spotted it and derailed him by transferring him to the West Coast which motivated retirement on the spot - I guess to try to cheat his way to the top someplace else. Most organizations are self-correcting – at least to a point.
I had the unique chance to observe a promotion board for O-6’s. I was surprised how readily careerists were weeded out of promotions. By that stage in one’s career, the odds were that at least one promotion board member had served with every candidate. That added insights to any faint-praise double-speak in annual performance appraisals. Thing is, unless you have had a chance to see this sort of thing, it is easy to adopt peer stereotypes of the brass and view unpopular tasks as validation of those stereotypes.
Tom you do realize that your admonition about our views being reflective of our own experience, also pertains to you.
And it is also a fact that people whose identity is based on externalities are protective of those things that comprise their identity.
If I cast aspersions say on Christians, Muslims or Jews, a Christian, Muslim or Jew that reads my comment will experience a heart palpitation, and have a reaction.
A mustang who graduated from a service academy is a rarity, not as you seem to infer a common occurence.
And at best they would have achieved the rank of E-4, because of age. The average age is between 17 and 23, with 23 being the average age of a newly minted 2nd Lt.
I wouldn't consider an officer a mustang, unless they had NCO experience.
Then again I am projecting from personal Experience.
Then there are the Captain George W. Bush who was commissioned a 2d Lt by his father, the governor, upon graduation from basic military (enlisted) training and never even learned the minimum requirement of a commissioned officer.
But our point of disagreement Tom is that you expect more of officers especially 0-7 and above, than I.
And I base my opinon on proven behavior, like Generals Mike and Charles Flynn, and Stanley McChrystal and they are not anomalies at all.
We are two months away from finding out who is correct and who has mud on their face.
So far I am batting 1000 I predicted that Gaetz would withdraw his name from consideration, I also predict that he will be the Speaker of the House in th 119th congress. Trump will sure try and only some unforseen fluke will stop that from happening.