Normally, compromise is a good thing, even in politics when it can be immensely disappointing, to say the least. But that's how democracies are supposed to work, generally speaking.
But how do you compromise with people who are wholly committed to taking away other people's long-established rights, especially ones so basic as choice, priv…
Normally, compromise is a good thing, even in politics when it can be immensely disappointing, to say the least. But that's how democracies are supposed to work, generally speaking.
But how do you compromise with people who are wholly committed to taking away other people's long-established rights, especially ones so basic as choice, privacy, agency over one's own body, and command over the direction of one's own life, on equal footing with men?
The best way to "compromise" is to vote, vote, vote, and gain the majority in the U.S. Congress. And then, codify the rights of all women on a national level regardless of where they happen to live -- so that individual state legislatures and governors in red states can't deny U.S. citizens constitutionally protected rights passed by a Congress that represents the vast majority of the entire nation, not just a minority of religious whackos who want to drag the rest of us into their "Handmaid's Tale" dystopia.
I understand your well placed desire to avoid, at all costs, a Handmaid's Tale dystopia.
That said, when something becomes a "right" and a large percentage of the population opposes it you then force them to fight back with everything they have. For the right this has been a 30+yr battle that has resulted in a SCOTUS now dominated by Handmaids like justices.
In Jamal Green's recent book, How Rights Went Wrong, (he is a Professor of Law at Yale, i think) he argues that issues like civil rights, abortion and many others are actually better worked out through the democratic process where both sides end up invested in the solution.
On the issue of abortion he points to both Germany and Canada as examples where legislators worked out compromises that work for both sides. In Germany abortion is technically illegal, satisfying the anti abortion side. At the same time there are an array of exceptions which make having an abortion highly accessible for all intents and purposes, though woman do have to go through counseling before getting the abortion. Further the anti abortion side had to agree to a number of policies to insure the child is well taken care of especially in the case of single mothers.
The bottom line is that in Germany the issue is settled and both sides had to give and take. One side is not trying to stack the courts with closed minded lunatics just to force their way. With our "winner take all" approach there is always going to be one side that is massively angry.
I know it sounds counter intuitive, but compromise almost always works better than forcing something down the throat of one side.
You mean like what Republicans in Texas are doing? What Republicans on the Supreme Court are doing? What Republicans on Capitol Hill are doing? What Republicans are doing all across America in Republican controlled states -- the minority party shoving their minority religious beliefs down the throat of the majority?
Roe v. Wade WAS the compromise! Well, that didn't work out so well for the majority once the minority view took over SCOTUS. We need a national law to protect the rights of women everywhere. Trying to compromise with brainwashed zealots who don't understand the concept is a fool's errand.
The brainwashed zealots you refer to feel the same way about us. So they have incentive to fight for total power given "Rights" like Roe. When we reach compromise neither side has the incentive to kill or be killed.
In Germany abortion is technically not legal, but woman can and do still get abortions and there is no effort to take over their version of our Supreme Court with the kind of Bridesmaid justices we have today. And that is better for all sides than what we have put our selves into by choosing to make abortion a "right" rather than a law.
I'm not arguing against compromise; I'm saying that it's foolish to think you can compromise with with shameless liars who don't negotiate in good faith om purpose. The history is clear.
The result is obvious. The Overton Window has been dragged far to the right over the decades because of progressive liberals appeasing religious reactionary authoritarians. What use to be right-wing extremism is now being mainstreamed and normalized.
That's not compromise; that's giving into anti-democratic fascism that is slowly, inexorably eroding representative democracy under our very feet as we speak. Ideals are one thing; reality on the ground is another -- more often than not, they don't agree. We're at war; the Republicans started it; choose a side.
Civil wars are the most damaging. We are all better off toning the rhetoric down so we can find common ground.
I will grant you everything you have said about the GOP. And the more they feel people like you and I are not listening to or respecting their views the more attractive leaders like Trump and Ted Cruz become to their voters.
This is a war where neither side wins.
And it serves the interest of the Corporations that would rather us fight to the death over abortion or WOKE professors or Trans people than organize and come together over things like higher wages, better health care, cleaner environment, higher taxes on the rich, breaking up monopolies etc...
Compromise is the only path. The longer you fight it the more you play into the hands of the donor class who need to keep us at each others throats to hold on to power.
History demonstrates quite the opposite: Appeasement is what plays into the hands of the fascist, not resistance. The Looney Tune right and their truly dangerous ides and rhetoric absolutely need to be called out and ridiculed in every way possible. What the goddamn fascist fools on the far, far right must realize is that most people in America viscerally disagree with their radical ideology. Mainstream Republicans are using barely veiled fascism as bait, and their base is swallowing it hook, line, and sinker.
You don't appease enemies, period. And there are traitors in our midst. Republicans have declared themselves as such: blood enemies to their political opponents AND the Constitution! By denying Biden's clear and clean victory -- oh yeah, and plotting a coup! -- they have laid down their marker. They have declared war on truth, justice, and what use to be "the American way."
People with their heads screwed on right DO listen to the authoritarian views of Republicans, but they do NOT respect them. How can they? The Party of the Rich has no platform to offer voters other than fealty to a strongman and the oligarchs on Wall Street pulling the strings.
Hiding out in some illusive "middle" is an admission of defeat snd a really bad place to be. Go along to get along as America slides toward the Republican version of dystopian hell is not a viable political strategy.
So count me out -- liberals compromising with creeping fascism is the reason we are where we are today.
If it is 35 to 40% of the country that thinks like the "Fascists GOP" then are they actually traitors?
None of your arguments "barely veiled fascism" "denying Bidens clear victory" "plotting a coup" are new to them and they are not buying your view.
This has nothing to do with finding the "illusive" middle ground. There is no middle ground in your rhetoric and there is certainly not middle ground in Trump rhetoric.
You are failing at convincing them and they are failing at convincing you. That is not going to change with your rhetoric any more than Trump is going to convince you to change if he gets more firm in his insults.
So what is your solution if they are not swallowing your angry rhetoric? War??
Normally, compromise is a good thing, even in politics when it can be immensely disappointing, to say the least. But that's how democracies are supposed to work, generally speaking.
But how do you compromise with people who are wholly committed to taking away other people's long-established rights, especially ones so basic as choice, privacy, agency over one's own body, and command over the direction of one's own life, on equal footing with men?
The best way to "compromise" is to vote, vote, vote, and gain the majority in the U.S. Congress. And then, codify the rights of all women on a national level regardless of where they happen to live -- so that individual state legislatures and governors in red states can't deny U.S. citizens constitutionally protected rights passed by a Congress that represents the vast majority of the entire nation, not just a minority of religious whackos who want to drag the rest of us into their "Handmaid's Tale" dystopia.
Deep
I understand your well placed desire to avoid, at all costs, a Handmaid's Tale dystopia.
That said, when something becomes a "right" and a large percentage of the population opposes it you then force them to fight back with everything they have. For the right this has been a 30+yr battle that has resulted in a SCOTUS now dominated by Handmaids like justices.
In Jamal Green's recent book, How Rights Went Wrong, (he is a Professor of Law at Yale, i think) he argues that issues like civil rights, abortion and many others are actually better worked out through the democratic process where both sides end up invested in the solution.
On the issue of abortion he points to both Germany and Canada as examples where legislators worked out compromises that work for both sides. In Germany abortion is technically illegal, satisfying the anti abortion side. At the same time there are an array of exceptions which make having an abortion highly accessible for all intents and purposes, though woman do have to go through counseling before getting the abortion. Further the anti abortion side had to agree to a number of policies to insure the child is well taken care of especially in the case of single mothers.
The bottom line is that in Germany the issue is settled and both sides had to give and take. One side is not trying to stack the courts with closed minded lunatics just to force their way. With our "winner take all" approach there is always going to be one side that is massively angry.
I know it sounds counter intuitive, but compromise almost always works better than forcing something down the throat of one side.
You mean like what Republicans in Texas are doing? What Republicans on the Supreme Court are doing? What Republicans on Capitol Hill are doing? What Republicans are doing all across America in Republican controlled states -- the minority party shoving their minority religious beliefs down the throat of the majority?
Roe v. Wade WAS the compromise! Well, that didn't work out so well for the majority once the minority view took over SCOTUS. We need a national law to protect the rights of women everywhere. Trying to compromise with brainwashed zealots who don't understand the concept is a fool's errand.
Deep
The brainwashed zealots you refer to feel the same way about us. So they have incentive to fight for total power given "Rights" like Roe. When we reach compromise neither side has the incentive to kill or be killed.
In Germany abortion is technically not legal, but woman can and do still get abortions and there is no effort to take over their version of our Supreme Court with the kind of Bridesmaid justices we have today. And that is better for all sides than what we have put our selves into by choosing to make abortion a "right" rather than a law.
I'm not arguing against compromise; I'm saying that it's foolish to think you can compromise with with shameless liars who don't negotiate in good faith om purpose. The history is clear.
The result is obvious. The Overton Window has been dragged far to the right over the decades because of progressive liberals appeasing religious reactionary authoritarians. What use to be right-wing extremism is now being mainstreamed and normalized.
That's not compromise; that's giving into anti-democratic fascism that is slowly, inexorably eroding representative democracy under our very feet as we speak. Ideals are one thing; reality on the ground is another -- more often than not, they don't agree. We're at war; the Republicans started it; choose a side.
Deep
Civil wars are the most damaging. We are all better off toning the rhetoric down so we can find common ground.
I will grant you everything you have said about the GOP. And the more they feel people like you and I are not listening to or respecting their views the more attractive leaders like Trump and Ted Cruz become to their voters.
This is a war where neither side wins.
And it serves the interest of the Corporations that would rather us fight to the death over abortion or WOKE professors or Trans people than organize and come together over things like higher wages, better health care, cleaner environment, higher taxes on the rich, breaking up monopolies etc...
Compromise is the only path. The longer you fight it the more you play into the hands of the donor class who need to keep us at each others throats to hold on to power.
👎👎👎
History demonstrates quite the opposite: Appeasement is what plays into the hands of the fascist, not resistance. The Looney Tune right and their truly dangerous ides and rhetoric absolutely need to be called out and ridiculed in every way possible. What the goddamn fascist fools on the far, far right must realize is that most people in America viscerally disagree with their radical ideology. Mainstream Republicans are using barely veiled fascism as bait, and their base is swallowing it hook, line, and sinker.
You don't appease enemies, period. And there are traitors in our midst. Republicans have declared themselves as such: blood enemies to their political opponents AND the Constitution! By denying Biden's clear and clean victory -- oh yeah, and plotting a coup! -- they have laid down their marker. They have declared war on truth, justice, and what use to be "the American way."
People with their heads screwed on right DO listen to the authoritarian views of Republicans, but they do NOT respect them. How can they? The Party of the Rich has no platform to offer voters other than fealty to a strongman and the oligarchs on Wall Street pulling the strings.
Hiding out in some illusive "middle" is an admission of defeat snd a really bad place to be. Go along to get along as America slides toward the Republican version of dystopian hell is not a viable political strategy.
So count me out -- liberals compromising with creeping fascism is the reason we are where we are today.
Deep
If it is 35 to 40% of the country that thinks like the "Fascists GOP" then are they actually traitors?
None of your arguments "barely veiled fascism" "denying Bidens clear victory" "plotting a coup" are new to them and they are not buying your view.
This has nothing to do with finding the "illusive" middle ground. There is no middle ground in your rhetoric and there is certainly not middle ground in Trump rhetoric.
You are failing at convincing them and they are failing at convincing you. That is not going to change with your rhetoric any more than Trump is going to convince you to change if he gets more firm in his insults.
So what is your solution if they are not swallowing your angry rhetoric? War??