113 Comments
Mar 23Liked by Thom Hartmann

I don't enjoy it when Thom Hartmann reinforces my darker speculations - because Thom is quite often correct in his speculation.

My heart is with all hearts in this world. Now and forever.

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Someone needs to send this article to big mouth MTG to educate her. Maybe it would wake her up to the realization of how dangerous her rhetoric is. I can’t believe she could be so stupid she wouldn’t want to prevent WWIII. Doesn’t she have a son?

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Marlo, stupid mtg is mentally ill. Stupid + having a twisted brain = dangerous.

Whoever grabs the megaphone 📣 is the loudest gets attention. She doesn’t want to be educated, right? Just power no matter WHAT.

I now whisper to my standard poodle pup when I want him to pay attention.

It works beautifully.

I’m sure you understand.

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Having a 20 yr old son, I think MTG would have an interest in averting a WWIII.

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Does she have the intelligence and insight that there's a real possibility Putin might use tactical (short range) nukes? I doubt it; and I doubt she would care how many Europeans died as a result.

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I've been saying this for some time; anyone who identifies as a Republican is, and will be, complicit in the instigation of WWIII.

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I cannot be friends with a Republican and I don’t trust them.

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I have many friends with different viewpoints than mine, and I relish the conversations we have. But they are not MAGAts. They abhor what has become of "their Father's Republican Party" as much as I do. And they understand that they can no longer identify as a member of the Republican party, and what it has become. Or as I say, what it has deteriorated into. But the key is, we TALK! We have remained friends. And we mourn the loss of those we thought were our friends, but who have "drank the kool-aid", and will never again be our friends.

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I also no longer want to associate with people who support Trump. I see no good coming from trying to talk to them and consider them traitors.

There are elderly family members who most likely wouldn’t be if they didn’t live in a red state and attend a church that has supported Trump. They seem to forget their fathers were immigrant coal miners in SWPA when the miners began to unionize. I give them a wider berth, but not a pass.

Elderly folk who still identify as Republicans are doing so as a knee jerk reaction. That is absolutely not going to change. They are dying off as God intended, more and more senior citizens coming to age are not about to let SSI or Medicare expire.

If Putin plans to use the old, broke down, “How to Start a World War for Dummies” playbook, that we’ve all seen and know it always ends badly for the villains.

I can only hope the contradiction of terms; “Military Intelligence”, is finally used to stop this from escalating instead of creating investment opportunities for the 1%.

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What frightens me are all the younger people who have fallen prey to the cult. We have a number of them within our family ( a very large family ), and it makes for very uncomfortable circumstances. As you said, no good comes from any attempts to talk with them, about just about anything. And facts just fall on deaf ears. I'm not a kid anymore, and my tolerance level has diminished right along with my energy, so I mostly avoid gatherings when I can. I stopped attending church in 2017, as it became obvious, at least to me, that they were becoming an indoctrination center for this insane christo-fascism running rampant across the country. We are in for a rough road ahead, and I have serious doubts of it leveling off before my time is up. But at least I know I'm not alone in this, and that I'm stronger than anything they throw our way!!

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This cult bunch has gripped our nations people is definitely unbelievable. It’s scary, to say the absolute least. It seems that this 🍓🍊💩🤡🤮dictator has crawled into their heads and grabbed their spines.

I have no idea what the remedy is to combat such a cultist grip. Back in the day I’d have an answer, but I’m afraid that response nowadays would be totally illegal.

Trump has his presidential campaign as well as millions upon millions needed for his legal bills, judgements, and the like. Of course, we already know that his female attorneys are being paid by proxy. They apparently are getting their pay through the groping expertise of the 🍓🍊💩🤡🤮! Sickening. Allowing this POS to grope and run around into your private parts just because of who he thinks he is.

And, the male attorneys won’t stay because they never get paid. Too bad Frumpy isn’t into grasping, and playing with, balls. Some of those attorneys would probably stay if he did!

I have said thus before. The Old Republican Party as we once knew it to be, represent, is dead, gone. It needs to be buried. What has taken its place is this form of cult, fascist-Christian cult that has their ‘dictator’, ‘leader’, who’s only way to rule these people is to get into their heads and rule them as Putin rules Russia. One-third, approximately, of the American public has fallen prey to this cult. This is much worse than other cult leaders we have had in the past. The Jim Jones’ so to speak.

One thing is perfectly clear. If we don’t figure out a way to get this man under control, our democracy will become his dictatorship. I’m not living in a country of a dictatorship. I refuse!!!

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Your friends who don’t agree with the “MAGATS” like MTG should contact their representatives and DEMAND they vote AGAINST what Trump wants or they won’t get their vote. They should allow the bipartisan bill to come to the floor for a vote. They also need to call the Speaker and say this as well. They can’t just sit by and allow this to happen and re-elect a person who is doing what an unelected person is controlling (Trump).

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I’m in Ohio, Marlo, arguably the most corrupt state in the union. We are so criminally gerrymandered here as to be less than Russia or Hungary. I’ve called and written my rep, Dave Joyce, almost daily. So do my friends. But he doesn’t have the spine to stand up for Democracy. And I tell him that makes him complicit, and that I will be working to have him voted out in November. And that’s where we are, all of us, waiting for November to vote them all out, and get this mess straightened out.

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Can you contact your attorney general about the gerrymandering? It needs to go to the court. That’s what we did in Michigan (I think).

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I SO wish Ohio was like Michigan!! Our AG here is a turd Republican named Dave Yost. There's a prison cell waiting for him, next to the one with our governor's name on it, and across the cellblock from the one reserved for the SoS, Frank LaRose. Those 3 are some of the most corrupt Republicans in the nation. Oh, and one of the so-called justices on the state supreme court is the son of the governor. Only in Ohio.

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The old autocrats and wannabe autocrats are nearing the end of their lives. They don't care about anyone but themselves. Certainly not their countries or their countrymen. Sadly, it seems to me that the question is not whether the Goeterdaemmerung is coming, but when. Because like Nero, they all, including the faux orange god of our American cultists, cannot imagine a world without them in it, and will happily bring an end to that world along with their own lives.

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You've described the top tier malignant narcissists who might, indeed, relish "going out with a bang!"

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Judith; so correct. We all know about the RAPTURE thing.

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Mr. Hartman. It is a time honored strategic tactic for national leaders to sit on their hands while they have knowledge that some foe is about to attack an element of the national apparatus; then allow this attack as a mechanism to enrage the domestic population to the point where they are willing to engage in war. A more complete list in the last century should include at least:

1) Hitler and the Reichstag building.

2) Roosevelt and Pearl Harbor.

3) Kennedy and Diem.

4) Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

5) Baby Bush and 911.

6) Netanyahu and the Hamas attack.

7) Now possibly Putin and the theater building.

This list ignores other different, but similar acts of infamy by national leaders, like for instance:

1) Nixon's treasonous negotiations with the Vietnamese prior to his election to the White House.

2) Reagan's treasonous negotiations with Iran prior to his election to the White House.

3) Some current members of Congress who are willing accomplices to Orban's and Putin's schemes.

Some More??????????? Are these lists too short?

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Egad! Gerald. Seeing all that in one place …

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As a purely academic exercise I do wonder if these deceptive actions would have been taken, so horrendously costly in human life and destruction of our fragile environment, had the combustion engine and oil not been discovered, or harnessed for completely different ends.

If yes, the hyper developments in Tech and AI bodes ill for us all as we have yet to discipline ourselves regarding the unintended consequences of fossil fuels.

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Monnina. May I suggest that it is neither raw materials (like petroleum) nor innovations (like IA) which are the root causes that "bode ill" consequences for human life on Earth and the degradation of our planetary environment?

It is instead the notion of private ownership of our world and the inevitable greed that accompanies it which condemns us to this current hell. Mother Nature (or God) gave it to us all.

Our grandchildren will sing the words of Peter, Paul and Mary:

"They didn't know in the old time

The Earth and the sea were to share

They didn't know in the old time

Or care.

Once there were songs

About rights instead of wrongs

Once was the time of Man."

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Agreed It is this lack of heart centred social vision that is so destructive. Fun fact. Peter, Paul and Mary were once our babysitters back in the 1960s whenever we lived in NY’s Perry Street, Greenwich Village. Hearing Puff the Magic 🐉 is one of my earliest memories.

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Monnina. How pleasant it is to read people on Mr. Hartman's blog who, like you, have something innovative and revealing to say. I note that your doctorate is in an academic field close to mine, Sociology. I believe the next big intellectual breakthrough in the Social Sciences will be achieved by Anthropologists studying the nature of language.

I still listen to my old 33rpm disc playing Peter Paul and Mary as I walk on my treadmill. My daughter graduated from Columbia and lived a decade in the upper side of the Island. I regret that I rarely got to the lower end of Manhattan when I visited with her. I imagine you miss it.

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Hello Gerald.

How we communicate, or not, has so much to do with how and what we remember. I agree that a deeper understanding of the intellectual mechanics and emotional moorings of both language and memory are in reach. Such a development would do much to enlighten our present cultural darkness.

And I miss too many things. A calming sun sprinkled ocean of memories is what keeps me afloat in these stormy times.

Enjoy walking with Peter,Paul and Mary 🐈‍⬛

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This is a repost of my response on your earlier article" No false flags, no need for Ukraine this is all the doing of ISIS-K and Putin will take advantage of it, with the help of our American turncoats like MTG and Trump

There was an attack in Moscow, and it hasn't gotten any real play in the corporate media,not even "liberal" MSNBC. just a passing mention as a fire, that killed 20 people.

However, there was a brief report that ISIS-K claimed responsibility for Putin's meddling in the Mid East.

The K stand for Khorosan, it is the name for Iran, at the time of the Arab conquest.

And ISIS-K is committing acts in Iran.

ISIS is Sunni, Iran is Shia. Westerners have no inkling of the 1400 year long conflict between Sunni (from Sunnah meaning the Followers - of Muhammad ans Shia meaning followers of Ali - Muhammads cousin and first student or Ali bin Abi Talib, which translates as Exalted father of the son of the Student or cousin.

HAMAS is Sunni, however it is being supported, logistically with weapons, and tactically with training and planning by Shia Iran. Hezbollah and the Alawite Assad family which rules Syria are Shia. The Kingdom and Jordan are Sunni.The Saudi family rules the peninsula because of an alliance that a tribal chief name of Saud made with a religious fanatic named Wahab,centuries ago, thus the Kingdom is ruled by a King whose reign is enfranchised by a cult of clerics called Wahabbiyah.

The Mullahcracy of Iran (Shia) sent a squad of infiltrators into Mecca during the annual haj (pilgrimage to Mecca) om 1987, to capture Mecca, it failed and it was a bloodbath, exasperating the tensions between Sunni and Shia Islam.

Shia Muslims do live in the Kingdom but are serviced and maintained by Shia and foreign workers.

Foreign kufr (non Muslim) workers live in walled compounds that have been desacrilized by the Mufti of Mecca.

Shia Muslims are to Saudi Arabia as migrant workers are to the American agricultural sector.

The ISIA-K attack on Moscow is evidence of Putin's involvement, via Iran, with HAMAS, and I say again

Oct 7th was not a coincidence in being the birthday of Putin and HAMAS attackvon Israel, the worlds attention was shifted from Ukraine to Israel, and painfully much of the anti Trump left has been sucked into the scheme..

What a success. Evidently ISIS-K is more perceptive than self absorbed, self righteous Americans, who have found another bright shiny object (Israel) to obsess on.

It isn't just the theocratic, Christian nationalist right that are morons. there are plenty in middle and liberal America.

And even our "liberal"media is sucked into the scheme, because that is where the clicks, thus profits are.

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I agree that circumstantial evidence shows that Putin and Iran were both sponsoring a proxy war through Hamas. If anything, they played Netanyahu, who is vulnerable, He's also probably been played by the UAE/Trump in the Abraham Accords deal as a willing idiot. He missed the movie Dinner for Schmucks.

I don't know whether ISIS members can be Shia. I do know that Trump didn't have to negotiate and release the Taliban in order for us to pull out of Afghanistan, and they are Suni and have been repressing Shia. https://www.rferl.org/a/afghanistan-taliban-shiite-persecution-discrimination/32507042.html Putin and the Taliban are now allies.

Several neighboring countries accused Putin of sending soldiers in disguise to lead protests in another country or order its troops to attack partners of Russia. The USSR had a history....In 1939, the Soviet Union shelled its own troops outside the Soviet village of Mainila near Finland. It then blamed Finland for the attack and invaded in violation of the two countries' nonaggression pact. This is the cookbook: https://it.usembassy.gov/how-russia-conducts-false-flag-operations/#:~:text=Russia's%20false%20flag%20operations%20date,the%20two%20countries'%20nonaggression%20pact.

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Nobody can “like” this post, Daniel, but there’s a lot to read and digest. Thx.

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I like your analysis. Many of us have already forgotten the Sunni-Shia divide that was such a prominent issue in the senseless (except for Bush and the wealthy neocons) Iraq war. Apparently, Putin has not forgotten and has been playing those two sides to his advantage.

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No one in the Middle East ever forgets it, Judith …

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Of course they don't. The hostilities are palpable.

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Yes. As one who does not understand belief in gods, it leaves me breathless and sad.

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As with Democrat v Republican in present day America, much of the Sunni v Shia conflict is a mix of abstract historical hatred based in a misremembered or a deliberately deceptively mediated past and actual iniquities and crimes committed to friends, family and communities.

The much debased term of sourcerer refers, in my mind, to individuals who can source the origins and the truth of things, just like Thom Hartmann does.

It is only truth that can shine a light into the darkness of our ignorance which is historically and presently always the source of all our ills.

Putin is a vain, wilfully ignorant man who indulges in abstract hatred and imagined hurt. That is why, unfortunately, I think Thom is probably correct about this attack in Moscow being used as the excuse for an à l’outrance conflict.

The warning signs about Russian intentions to takeover the US as The World Power have been flashing for those looking for them since the Fall of the Berlin Wall. Especially brightly in London and within it’s ruling class, many of whom are already, like MAGA, seemingly working hand in glove with Russia.

For instance, in laying the ground for full state oppression I think you would be hard pressed to spot any difference between that and the UK legislation below and Hitler’s Decree on the Protection of People and State:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covert-human-intelligence-sources-draft-code-of-practice/covert-human-intelligence-sources-bill-factsheet-accessible-version

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I hope our military is on high alert. I think this is the most likely scenario, we will know next week. We cannot allow Putin to just pulverize Ukraine. May be time to get more intimately involved.

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founding

I sure hope you’re not “onto something here.” But fear you may be.

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This does smell like another false flag operation by the more unevolved lying right wingers who hate democracy.

If only gARLAND would have prosecuted the Russian sympathizers in Congress 3 years ago!

If Russia gets even more aggressive towards Ukraine, even with nuclear weapons, it will cause much chaos and turmoil in America and the right wing anarchist's thrive on that. Lies, fear and hatred is how they try to overthrow nations.

I can't help but suspect Russia, China, gOPS, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Netanyahu, Iran and many more right-wing capitalist nations, will try to send all of their undesirables off to war without weapons. Possibly in an attempt to avert global warming, but more likely to end social programs so the rich will have even more money, or it could be both or more?

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Not false flag, Bob.

But misused and misrepresented to serve wider nefarious plans.

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Do you believe anything that comes out of Russia? Almost all the honest journalists have been imprisoned! It is possible, Putin's puppets lit the fire or knew ISIS-k was planning on lighting the fire and in the country.

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No, I do NOT believe anything that comes from official Russia — I’m sure sometimes they DO tell the truth, but I don’t know how to tell the difference between that and the tall tales Putin tells.

It’s entirely possible {let’s say even a good deal probable?} that Putin took a less than diligent approach to dealing with the warning the US gave him when we warned our own people in Russia to avoid large gatherings because extremists were planning a terrorist attack within Russia.

Maybe, Putin considered this an opportunity to repurpose the attack and blame Ukraine…. ? …. Hmmm? Well, yeah!

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Diagree Bob, re read the thread and read my post about ISIS-K.

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William, so, ISIS-k are not right wingers? Whoever Putin rounds up as being responsible for it, will probably be called Ukrainians. Right wingers worldwide lie constantly, while lying and stealing for power and money.

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Where did I say or imply that ISIS-K are not right wingers?

What is meant by right wing. The term right wing is derivative of the post 1789 French National Assembly (Parliament or Americans House of Representatives) the conservatives sat on the right, the liberals sat on the left,hence right wing and left wing,

ISIS is ultra utlra conservative version of Islam, thus right wing.

Putin has already tried to blame it on the Ukrainians. It isn't working, but Putin doesn't care, because it is all for internal political consumption, he is using and will use anything any instance, even create an instance to justify, to the Russians, his imperialim.

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It's kind of odd that our intelligence could predict a terrorist act in Russia, but could not predict one in America on 1/6?

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Thank you for your reply, William. I am well familiar with who HAMAS is and what they have done. I am a very proud Jewish woman, lived in Israel for a year and have a large family spread throughout the country. You may have seen them in the weekly protests to save their Supreme Court and get rid of Netanyahuy on most TV channel for months. They are still protesting but for NEW elections! They are well aware that most, if not all, the hostages have probably passed by now; and if there are any alive they may never recover emotionally, mentally, physically from the horrors they have seen and lived through. Netanyahu told the Palestinians to go south...so they went south. Then he told them to leave the south...they went to Rafah. Now, where are they supposed to go? No Arab country will allow them in. The fascists in Congress have made it clear that as far as they are concerned immigrants are not welcome in America. So, does starvation then become the answer? NO!!!

Of course Biden has no control over Hamas or any other country for that matter. Netanyahu is no different from American's would be dictator - both will do whatever they can to stay out of prison, even if it means destroying their country's democrarcy.

"Defying Biden, Netanyahu renews pledge to launch Rafah offensive

The prime minister’s comments came a day after Biden warned him against carrying out an operation in a city sheltering more than a million displaced Palestinians". https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-rafah-invasion-netanyahu-biden-phone-call-rcna144057

So Thom is right to be worried...Putin has his puppets in place and the world is watching to see what strings he pulls next.

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Mar 23·edited Mar 23

"I hope I’m wrong. Praying, frankly, that I’m wrong.Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, and Anthony Blinken must have a hellacious job today…”.

I, too, hope you are wrong Thom but, sadly, I fear your words may be proven true. My heart is heavy for the loss of innocent lives, especially the children who never had a chance to live, just to stroke the egos of maniacal leaders and keep criminals, i.e. Netanyahu and the 🟠💩 out of jail. We are living in perilous times with little recourse but to sit and watch what unfolds on the world stage.

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Your sentiments show a kind heart Rebel.

But Biden has no control over HAMAS, you see the death and suffering of all those women and children in Gaza can and should be laid on the door step of HAMAS.

HAMAS flew into Israel raping and slaughtering women, burning babies and toddlers alive, killing elderly and disabled, but there is no weeping and rendering of clothing for those butchered and raped by HAMAS.

And that wasn't enough, the hauled back 240 Jews to Gaza to use as hostages and human shields because they believed that the Jews would sacrifice everything for a precious Jewish life, like they did for that soldier Gilad, to get him back they released 1000 terorists, whom the Muslims call freedom fighters.

Every one of those deaths in Gaza, every building leveled can be laid squarely in the laps of cowardly HAMAS, for using their people and hostages as human shields.

I seriously doubt that any of the hostages are sill alive we know at least 30 are dead and HAMAS of course blames them on the Jews, but they said at the outset that they will kill a hostage for every bomb that falls.

HAMAS also gave orders to kill babies and infants as they are too noisy, and require too much retention.;. and that little fact is never mentioned in the "liberal" press, is it. Just once and then passed on, as Americans have the attention span of a gnat.

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There is nothing too horrible to be true.

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How long do we need to understand that lies are the path of the deluded and all the excuse dictators or want to be dictators desire. The Bible is clear that fear and lies are the opponents we need to care most about. Does that inform those that watch Fox News or the churches that hate those that do not hold to their doctrine? Our enemies are fear and lies. Time to declare that we must make such things extinct and that those that contaminate us with them are to be shamed and raise the young to loathe fear and lies.

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Lies come at you from every angle and every corner of the Universe Clayton. How does one discriminate truth from lies, other than by ones own beliefs and predisposition.

The only tool we have is to step back, disengage and view affairs on earth as if we were disconnected, as if we were aliens from another world.

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Mr. Farrar. Yes, although we are social beings submerged in a linguistic milieu not of our creation; in the end we must all make our own decisions. In a sense it might be good to become metaphorical "aliens."

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I'm an earthling alien!

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An interesting cover article in last month's "Harper's" says that the Israelis refused to believe Hamas could attack them because they disparaged the group and believed that their computerized military systems would give them ample warning. In other words, they ignored human intelligence on the ground because it did not fit what they wanted to believe.

In any case, the creation of ISIS was a direct result of the invasion of Iraq, something news commentators rarely if ever mention. Bush and Cheney took a bad situation and with their lies made it infinitely worse. But as mentioned elsewhere in this section, people in this part of the world never forget their past...to which I'd add that the U.S. never seems to learn it. Many years ago in Afghanistan (I took the Hippie Trail overland from France to Nepal) a local proudly showed me the road where "they" beat Alexander the Great. Compare that with what the average American knows about their history. Thus the situation across the whole region will likely remain extremely dangerous. Fortunately Biden, like JFK during the Missile Crisis, is probably smart and educated enough not to let things spiral into a repeat of 1914 or 1939. Trump and his cronies would of course either bumble it or give away the store.

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Interesting timing since “Congress” just scattered for a two week vacay.

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Fast to warn us; slow to look for what to do. All readers do is corroborate how awful things are. Why not put their good minds into creative conversations?

It's what's happening with my essay contest. I've got a world of turned on people reporting fantasies for How We Saved the World. Here's one brilliant submission: https://suzannetaylor.substack.com/p/another-winner

Writing the essays got people so turned on to thinking about what to do that I'm looking at getting essays written everywhere, so we are all buzzing and creative!

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Mar 24·edited Mar 24

I just read The Power of Transparency and loved it. Thank you, Sue, for being the grain of sand in the oyster which produced this pearl. And, of course, thank you to Glen Merzer, author of The Power of Transparency.

Be the change you want to see. (Gandhi?)

Be FOR something, instead of against something.

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Reuters article from this morning: Explainer: What is ISIS-K, the group that attacked a Moscow concert hall?

"While the attack by ISIS-K in Russia on Friday was a dramatic escalation, experts said the group has opposed Russian President Vladimir Putin in recent years.

"ISIS-K has been fixated on Russia for the past two years, frequently criticizing Putin in its propaganda," said Colin Clarke of Soufan Center, a New York-based research group.

Michael Kugelman of the Washington-based Wilson Center said ISIS-K "sees Russia as being complicit in activities that regularly oppress Muslims."

The above is a very helpful piece. Add to the last bit that Putin oppresses EVERYONE and so do these RADICAL Muslims. There is no logic---just a psychopath thoroughly trained in espionage (including disinformation) and a group of disgusting misogynistic terrorists hellbent on making the world notice them. We may be on their to-do list, but they already got us at the airport evacuation in Afghanistan. We have killed many of them, but I'm sure they are growing a new crop as I write.

Meanwhile back at the brink of WWIII, it's a small comfort to know that we have adult, sane people in this Administration that will want us to know the TRUTH and will do their best to tell us the TRUTH. It is not that easy to hide the truth these days; it is not even easy for Putin. Dead bodies in Moscow, dead bodies coming home from Ukraine, young men fleeing their conscription, all roads lead to Putin. I wish he had been at the concert, but terrorists rather kill the innocent. Russians that love him rather reelect him. My heart is with the Russians that have the guts to oppose this monster.

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Allis, the K stands for Khorosan, Khorosan is the name for Iran before it was conquered by the Rashidun Caliphate in 653 CE.

ISIS has many cells. It is a salafist movement, that wants an originalist caliphate.

It announced that the attack was payback for Putin's involvement in the middle east.

Iran and Putin are butt buddies today, Oct 7th was Putins birthday, and HAMAS gave him a gift by distractding the west from Ukraine.

ISIS is Sunni, Iran is shia, and there has been a serious conflict between Sunni and Shia since the death of Muhammad over who is the rightful successor. Sunni fromSunnah means follower (of Muhammad) Shia or Shi'a, means follower of Ali. Ali was the first student (CONVERT) of Muhammad and the Shi'a, a cult that started in Iran, when the Perisians or Khorosans, were made Muslims by the Arabs of the Rashudin Caliphate.

It is a 1400 year old conflict of which the kaffirs (infidels of the west) are ignorant.

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Dear, dear William---I get it. MANY of us read this Muslim history during our wars, then we watched it play-out in real time. I've studied Putin. Hopefully someone will benefit from your replies today.

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I appreciate all your comments today William. Especially the in-depth explanations of the Sunni-Shia divide. It gets confusing at times. I have some dear Muslim friends in Morocco and they are fairly progressive.

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No doubt Lisa. There are many fairly progressive Christians as well, but push come to shove when they are convinced that other Christians are being persecuted for their religion, they circle the wagons.

There are legions of progressive Muslims, especially in America, enjoying the freedoms of choice that this country offers, but they are none the less Muslim, that is their identity and when they perceive other Muslims are being attacked by a historical enemy, they circle the wagons.

Are you familiar with Irshad Manji.? She is a lesbian, who identifies as Muslim, and doesn't wear the hijab, in essence she is a secular Muslim, and you will find such only in America because they have the luxury of being secular. She wouldn't last a day in a Muslim ethnostate of which there are 57.

There are quite a few in the public sphere, but push come to shove, they rally around the flagpole of the Ummah (the worldwide community of Muslims), for that is their identity even if they espouse liberal or progressive political values.

When you live in a free and open secular society, you have the luxury of not having to live under the thumb of a theocracy, which is not true in an Islamic etho state.

Compare them to the Jews. There are ultra orthodox, orthodox, refomed and secular Jews.

A secular Jew is one who identifies as such by birth and tradition. They are even atheists, the one thing that binds them to the community is tradition. Israel is a Jewish state, and until the right wing fascist ultra orthodox take full control, you will find secular and atheist Jews in the state. You will never find secular, atheist,progressive Muslims in an Islamic state, much less gays, lesbians and liberated women.

Christianity had no tolerance for liberated women, open and out gays and lesbians, much less a secular society and atheists. Not until the American revolution and the enlightenment that started in France in 1789.

The intolerance persisted until 1826 when the inquisition claimed it's last victim.

Freedom from religious oppression has had a 250 year respite, thanks to the United States of America and it's godless constitution and government, but that is apparently coming to an end, as the oppressive forces of religion are making a comeback, and at a vicious pace at that.

You see religions are by there very nature conservative, culturally and socially conservative.

In a free and open society, where there is no social and governmental pressure, laws and restrictions, one can be free to claim an ethnic identity and express oneself without any restraint other than the social and legal restraints of one's community.

Orthodox Jewish communities have their own family courts in at least NYC. and I know, but can't prove that the same exist in Islamic communities like Wayne Co., MI

So yes, there are progressive Muslims, Christians and Jews in a free and open society, but in the end they all cling to their religious,identity. For it is our identities that define us and our place in the world. Push come to shove, humans rally around the flagpole of their core identity.

I will say this though. There are Jews who are critical of Judaism, and reject its laws and behavior. The same for Christians. The same for Hindu's, but I have never met a Muslim who will reject or openly criticize any aspect of Islam. Not even the "secular" Muslims

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And the hjjab is not religious it is political, it was adopted throughout the Islamic world in the wake of the Islamic revolution of Iran. The only thing that the Quran says is that women should dress modestly and cover their breasts, it says noyhing about a hijab, much less the abaya, chador, nigab, burqa, and other versions of the bee keeper suit.

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