Most of the violence and warfare we know of amongst Native peoples and all of mankind, for that matter, was after the introduction of alcohol. Yup; it's that bad. This goes back to ancient Middle-east and Greek/Roman times. As the story goes, Noah gets off the boat and first thing he does is plant a vineyard. Then, he gets drunk. His son…
Most of the violence and warfare we know of amongst Native peoples and all of mankind, for that matter, was after the introduction of alcohol. Yup; it's that bad. This goes back to ancient Middle-east and Greek/Roman times. As the story goes, Noah gets off the boat and first thing he does is plant a vineyard. Then, he gets drunk. His sons make fun of him so he condemns them. Only one son who treated his drunk, naked father with respect gets a blessing. (Genesis Ch. 9) And so we start, over and over again. Even Eve; fruit ferments naturally and a very ripe piece of fruit (or grapes) will have some alcohol content. That's why the vow of the Nazirite requires that you eat nothing of the vine. I don't take these stories literally but there is a fable/moral to each. Note that God threw up the rainbow as a sign of reconciliation before Noah got drunk - we are forgiven and loved, no matter what. (Genesis Ch. 8)
Interesting outlook, as a recovered alcoholic, (i quit in 1989, started at age 15 in 1954, I understand where you are coming from. I see red, when watching a show and see people who encounter some form of crisis reach for the bottle. WTF.
However the peope of this continent (BE) fefore Europeans did not consume alcohol, they were not genetically evolved to handle it, apparently neither were the Irish, there is a propensity for alcohoism in some ethnicities because they lack the gene.
EasternEurope and Russia are the worst, for the same reason as above.
The native inhabitants of this country, on the otherhand, were waging war on each other, including slaughter of innocents and torture, long before alcohol touched their lips, in fact Ginger you have fallen for a racist trope.
I visited, back in the early 70's the Indian museum at Lawton, OK, I saw the skull of a child, with a hole in it made by a stone axe.
My point is that they are people, just like whites, same with blacks,same with any peoples, it is not racist to say that people do bad shit to each other, use humans for sacrifice, enslave people, it is racist however to deny that any peoples are human and share the same qualities and characteristics as other peoples.
Uh, you don't think that Indigenous peoples were fermenting fruits, smoking 'peyote' 1,000's of years before whiskey was introduced by the white man? Think again. I am sober too (congratulations!!). I know Native Americans in recovery and they readily admit to millennia of alcoholism in their families (just like us). Good to discuss!
Of course, getting high is universal, pick yer pison. Your premise, however, is that alcohol introduced by whites is CAUSE of "most of the violence and warfare amongst NAms...." That's where you're running into pushback.
I thought you'd be interested in this reply to Ginger's reply to you. (I also replied to Ginger's earlier post)
Of course, getting high is universal, pick yer pison. Your premise, however, is that alcohol introduced by whites is CAUSE of "most of the violence and warfare amongst NAms...." That's where you're running into pushback.
Thanks, I saw your response earlier. I don't understand this need to excuse the NAm or blame the Europeans for NAm violence. Humans are violent and territorial, we were when the neanderthal and homo sapiens were running into each other. It is well known that other groups of NAm, like the Maya and Aztec were warring, sacrificing and eating each other, and the practice extended southward into Chile and Peru.
Sorry, but horses way badder than alcohol in creating NAm conflict. Suddenly exploded scale of territory and travel, suddenly tribes who barely knew about each other had a whole new "tradition:" horse-stealing raids! Hating each other for differences just like tribes of any kind since beginning of time everywhere. In far N. CA, a surveying expedition up the Pit River canyon was trying to recruit native porters around the turn of the 19th/20th C. (not even burro passable terrain!) Surveyors were surprised by NAm's reluctance. Finally one explained: There was a different tribe about four miles upriver, and they didn't even speak the same language, and if we run into them, they will kill us. Later on, a major cause of the famous "Modoc War" was that the Modocs and Klamaths were ancient enemies, and the whites put the Modocs on the same Res. as the much more numerous Klamaths. There are though to have been more than 3,000 distinct tribes in CA, and close to that many languages. So, small territories with localised survival strategies, and not so much with the horses.
For some reason, you seem to be emotionally invested in the idea that until white man's liquor the Native Americans were peace loving..
White man booze certainly brought its own problems and made a bad situation worse.
The fact is that they were killing each other. Talking of the Klamath. You should know that I live in the Pacific NW, and before the white man reached them, they were raiding each other, taking women with which to breed (genetic diversity) and, oh, killing each other.
Since you seem to be so interested in Native Americans, you would be interested in
The Red Record: The Wallam Olum: The Oldest Native North American History, by David McKutcheon. It seems that the oldest written record was that of the Leni Lenapi, besides recording the visit of John Cabot, they aso recorded their trek across America, including encountering and wiping out, what seems to be the Mound people of the Mississippi valley.
But I know how people and how the and how the mind works. When someone is emotionally invested in an idea, they will find all manners of rationalizations, excuses and distractions to justify and reinforce their beliefs. As I said on another post of Thom's, substack.
Beliefs are a powerful thing, part of, in fact the core of their identity.
And yes Europeans (white folk) committed wholesale genocide, and I know all about the Modocs and the extermination of California natives.
Did you know that California got it's name from a Queen (Califa) of what was then considered to be an island, as the central valley was once a lake,until an earthquake created a natural dam sealing off the lake from Baja California The early Spanish maps showed it as such.
It can be hard to follow the threads: You wanted this to go to Ginger, no? I was also pushing back against "the idea that until white man's liquor the Native Americans were peace loving.."
Running from North Carolina to Kentucky was a Cherokee warpath, that the was overlain on an animal trail, as were all migration paths.
Judge Richard Henderson had bright idea, Came up with a scheme. America was then a British colony, and the colonists were forbidden to settle beyond 100 miles of the Atlantic coast, as the Crown feared a war with the French and Indians, which eventually came thanks to the bungling of George Washington.
His scheme was the charade of the Cherokee selling him land, So he sruck a deal with a Cherokee chief, in which he would trade muskets and axes for land. Land that they didn’t own, and he knew they didn’t own. That Land was Kentucky. The event is recorded as the Treaty of Wauataga.
He then hired a ne’er do well, that had been in his court. This excuse for a man, abandoned his wife and younger children to go off on his great adventurers.
He didn’t break trail, but followed the Cherokee war path, he lost two sons, and eventually was evicted from the settlement that bore his name, Boonesboro, because he didn’t know how to survey and all of his surveys were invalidated with people losing their homes.
The point is that his explorations were along a Cherokee war path, a war path the Cherokee used to raid the Fox, Shawnee and other nations, and this is before the white man moved west beyond the Appalachians, save for the few hearty that had settled on
Most of the violence and warfare we know of amongst Native peoples and all of mankind, for that matter, was after the introduction of alcohol. Yup; it's that bad. This goes back to ancient Middle-east and Greek/Roman times. As the story goes, Noah gets off the boat and first thing he does is plant a vineyard. Then, he gets drunk. His sons make fun of him so he condemns them. Only one son who treated his drunk, naked father with respect gets a blessing. (Genesis Ch. 9) And so we start, over and over again. Even Eve; fruit ferments naturally and a very ripe piece of fruit (or grapes) will have some alcohol content. That's why the vow of the Nazirite requires that you eat nothing of the vine. I don't take these stories literally but there is a fable/moral to each. Note that God threw up the rainbow as a sign of reconciliation before Noah got drunk - we are forgiven and loved, no matter what. (Genesis Ch. 8)
Interesting outlook, as a recovered alcoholic, (i quit in 1989, started at age 15 in 1954, I understand where you are coming from. I see red, when watching a show and see people who encounter some form of crisis reach for the bottle. WTF.
However the peope of this continent (BE) fefore Europeans did not consume alcohol, they were not genetically evolved to handle it, apparently neither were the Irish, there is a propensity for alcohoism in some ethnicities because they lack the gene.
EasternEurope and Russia are the worst, for the same reason as above.
Counties with a Celtic heritage like France, Belgium,Portugal are behind Russia and Eastern Europe and way ahead of Italy, which has been imbibing the fermented grape for millenia. and lag France by percentages. https://www.abbeycarefoundation.com/alcohol/alcoholism-by-country-statistics/
The native inhabitants of this country, on the otherhand, were waging war on each other, including slaughter of innocents and torture, long before alcohol touched their lips, in fact Ginger you have fallen for a racist trope.
I visited, back in the early 70's the Indian museum at Lawton, OK, I saw the skull of a child, with a hole in it made by a stone axe.
My point is that they are people, just like whites, same with blacks,same with any peoples, it is not racist to say that people do bad shit to each other, use humans for sacrifice, enslave people, it is racist however to deny that any peoples are human and share the same qualities and characteristics as other peoples.
Uh, you don't think that Indigenous peoples were fermenting fruits, smoking 'peyote' 1,000's of years before whiskey was introduced by the white man? Think again. I am sober too (congratulations!!). I know Native Americans in recovery and they readily admit to millennia of alcoholism in their families (just like us). Good to discuss!
Of course, getting high is universal, pick yer pison. Your premise, however, is that alcohol introduced by whites is CAUSE of "most of the violence and warfare amongst NAms...." That's where you're running into pushback.
I thought you'd be interested in this reply to Ginger's reply to you. (I also replied to Ginger's earlier post)
Of course, getting high is universal, pick yer pison. Your premise, however, is that alcohol introduced by whites is CAUSE of "most of the violence and warfare amongst NAms...." That's where you're running into pushback.
Thanks, I saw your response earlier. I don't understand this need to excuse the NAm or blame the Europeans for NAm violence. Humans are violent and territorial, we were when the neanderthal and homo sapiens were running into each other. It is well known that other groups of NAm, like the Maya and Aztec were warring, sacrificing and eating each other, and the practice extended southward into Chile and Peru.
Sorry, but horses way badder than alcohol in creating NAm conflict. Suddenly exploded scale of territory and travel, suddenly tribes who barely knew about each other had a whole new "tradition:" horse-stealing raids! Hating each other for differences just like tribes of any kind since beginning of time everywhere. In far N. CA, a surveying expedition up the Pit River canyon was trying to recruit native porters around the turn of the 19th/20th C. (not even burro passable terrain!) Surveyors were surprised by NAm's reluctance. Finally one explained: There was a different tribe about four miles upriver, and they didn't even speak the same language, and if we run into them, they will kill us. Later on, a major cause of the famous "Modoc War" was that the Modocs and Klamaths were ancient enemies, and the whites put the Modocs on the same Res. as the much more numerous Klamaths. There are though to have been more than 3,000 distinct tribes in CA, and close to that many languages. So, small territories with localised survival strategies, and not so much with the horses.
For some reason, you seem to be emotionally invested in the idea that until white man's liquor the Native Americans were peace loving..
White man booze certainly brought its own problems and made a bad situation worse.
The fact is that they were killing each other. Talking of the Klamath. You should know that I live in the Pacific NW, and before the white man reached them, they were raiding each other, taking women with which to breed (genetic diversity) and, oh, killing each other.
Since you seem to be so interested in Native Americans, you would be interested in
The Red Record: The Wallam Olum: The Oldest Native North American History, by David McKutcheon. It seems that the oldest written record was that of the Leni Lenapi, besides recording the visit of John Cabot, they aso recorded their trek across America, including encountering and wiping out, what seems to be the Mound people of the Mississippi valley.
But I know how people and how the and how the mind works. When someone is emotionally invested in an idea, they will find all manners of rationalizations, excuses and distractions to justify and reinforce their beliefs. As I said on another post of Thom's, substack.
Beliefs are a powerful thing, part of, in fact the core of their identity.
And yes Europeans (white folk) committed wholesale genocide, and I know all about the Modocs and the extermination of California natives.
Did you know that California got it's name from a Queen (Califa) of what was then considered to be an island, as the central valley was once a lake,until an earthquake created a natural dam sealing off the lake from Baja California The early Spanish maps showed it as such.
It can be hard to follow the threads: You wanted this to go to Ginger, no? I was also pushing back against "the idea that until white man's liquor the Native Americans were peace loving.."
Here is another tidbit for you
Running from North Carolina to Kentucky was a Cherokee warpath, that the was overlain on an animal trail, as were all migration paths.
Judge Richard Henderson had bright idea, Came up with a scheme. America was then a British colony, and the colonists were forbidden to settle beyond 100 miles of the Atlantic coast, as the Crown feared a war with the French and Indians, which eventually came thanks to the bungling of George Washington.
His scheme was the charade of the Cherokee selling him land, So he sruck a deal with a Cherokee chief, in which he would trade muskets and axes for land. Land that they didn’t own, and he knew they didn’t own. That Land was Kentucky. The event is recorded as the Treaty of Wauataga.
He then hired a ne’er do well, that had been in his court. This excuse for a man, abandoned his wife and younger children to go off on his great adventurers.
He didn’t break trail, but followed the Cherokee war path, he lost two sons, and eventually was evicted from the settlement that bore his name, Boonesboro, because he didn’t know how to survey and all of his surveys were invalidated with people losing their homes.
The point is that his explorations were along a Cherokee war path, a war path the Cherokee used to raid the Fox, Shawnee and other nations, and this is before the white man moved west beyond the Appalachians, save for the few hearty that had settled on
The Wautaga River in 1772. These men subsequently defeated the Loyalist militia of Maj Ferguson on King’s Mountain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watauga_Association
Yup, we blame everyone and everything but ourselves. Best defense is an offense.
So what is your real name? Are you in the PRC?