Can you build bridges to Trump cultists that may, over time and with work and love, help you pry them loose from the authoritarian leader or movement to which they’ve bonded?
Another great essay, Thom. You are too kind to people who choose authoritarianism. I understand the roots are evolutionary, but the primary challenge of humanity is to transcend our base behaviors and many, if not most, do so. Whether the MAGA won't or can't, it doesn't matter. They must be defeated and removed from power, as they are only comfortable in a state of Dark Age. Even then, they are not comfortable, but at least everyone else is suffering, too.
Nobody will ever be pure enough and no situation will ever be secure enough for them. It is sad; they live in fear, anger and grievance. I know them; I grew up with them. Sit around the kitchen table, give them a few beers and they just (belligerently) vomit the disinformation. I don't have anything to do with most of them any more. The chances of changing their MAGA-minds are very slim. I'm tactful - it's what I used to do for a living, but no amount of reason seems to work. While it can happen that they wake up, it is rare; they just move on to the next demagogue and the next conspiracy theory, which their minds are always spinning. This is a by-product, mostly, of the rural superstitious mind. Few want to admit this, but the demographics are clew.
I read a post the other day that said the two crashes of the Boeing 747 Max and the subsequent loss of a major side panel during a flight was "likely the work of unions trying to make Boeing look bad." Seriously. You can't reason with this. And where did that come from? I suspect right-wing media funding by billionaire-funded "think tanks."
Thank you Ms. coyote. I agree with you comments more than I like to admit. When considering Mr. Hartman's advice here; I think he has completely missed the mark. I usually hesitate to make overwhelming moral statements. But: There are some people in this world I have no desire to "deprogram." I have limits when it comes to "compromising" with people who throw children into cages at the border. I will neither accept nor look away from the bloodthirsty mass homicide of Gazans as an effort to put my opponents at ease so that we can concentrate on our "commonalities" and come to some kind of agreement. I can not look the other way when a presidential candidate who is a proven rapist, is accepted as a legitimate politician. People who do are participating in that rape after the fact. They are saying "vile abuse of women is not important." These people are evil and there is no compromise with this or them. Period. I am an Atheist; the one thing I value more than anything else is human beings. Some of them (for whatever reason) are so evil there is no point of mutual agreement with them. It does not matter if they are relatives or old friends. At a certain point one must draw a line and say NO! No "deprograming." If necessary we must throw our bodies onto the machinery of cultural hate and destroy the machine. Not compromise with it.
Sometimes, I wonder what did cause the German people who ardently supported the genocide of millions and steadfast support of Hitler’s war machine that totaled some 65 million dead to see the light as it were.
Unfortunately, it took the massive bombing/firebombing of German cities, the decimation of their armed forces (450,00 alone died in Russian POW camps) and Hitler’s burned with his body lying outside his Berlin Bunker with the city in ruins.
I’m just pointing out that for whatever reasons, once people form a cult bond with their leader and see the leaders will as that of a nation’s destiny, it is really hard to use reason as a means to enlightenment on reality.
Thanks for the comment. I don't think we agree on everything, but probably 80%. MAGA aren't "evil" in the strict sense of the word. I am hesitant to label such a large group of people as evil, but they certainly are misguided. To me, this is a failure of their religious indoctrination - untrained, grifting "pastors" all over the heartland and the south are fomenting both hatred of others and violence to get their way, in direct opposition to Christian teachings. These (mostly) men are destructive and have a lot for which to answer.
Misguided, gullible, and incapable of discernment are all character flaws, yes, but not intentional evil. Few of us wake up in the morning, look in the mirror and say to ourselves, "I'm going to go commit evil today and its going to be fun." Even Hitler was convinced he was doing good in the world.
Yes, the MAGA are deeply misogynist - they are steadfastly resistant and reactionary to change. Yes, they are racist - most of them have little to no interaction with people not like them and so their behaviors are fear-based. Where I grew up there were few Jewish people - my family didn't associate with any. Yet, there was deep hatred of Jewish people. This can't be explained rationally, but it was ignorance, not evil. I look at ignorance as the Petri dish in which evil is grown.
The Catholics have a saying, "Give me the child for the first seven years and I will give you the man." (Jesuit maxim widely attributed to Ignatius Loyola.) My ex, who was forced into Catholic schools as a child cannot utter the word "Nun" without putting "vicious" in front of it. Our child raising methods are at the heart of this. Conservatives/Religionists often whip their kids with belts or other objects, which tends to lower intelligence, create generalized and deeply embedded fear, and limit the ability to think with discernment.
Our problem is one of intractability. Once brainwashed as a child, people's behaviors become set. That is why I don't believe rational argument works on the MAGA.
And I would suggest you and I differ over the Gaza situation; I am more sympathetic to Israel, having watched a lifetime of Palestinian terrorism. But like you, I don't like the indiscriminate killing of civilians and want the violence to end.
Ms. Coyote. Your words here indicate a sophisticated mind and you are certainly more diplomatic and subtle than I. However, we are probably closer on Israel than appears at first. I grew up in a neighborhood which was 65% Jewish, my high school was 50% Jewish. I had friends who grew up on Kibbutzim. The parents of my friends had tatoos on their arms from the Nazi concentration camps. My brother married a Sephardic Jew from Casablanca. My favorite German professor in undergrad school was Rabi Kapustin an Israeli who told us beautiful tales about his life back home in the Holy-land. I was, and have been sympathetic with Israel. But I am an old man now. All that was well over half a century ago and Israel has obviously changed since that kind, gentle old Rabi's day.
I remember reading an article on the Intifada in The Atlantic - many, many years ago. Since then, Israel has had to deal with constant terrorism. A lot of us in the USA don't understand what it means, for example, to go out to eat at a pizza joint, knowing it might be bombed at any time. Israel is not without blame. The behavior around he settlements has been egregious. That said, the base of this is religious hatred of Israel and Jews that is centuries old. The Palestinians has steadfastly supported this terrorism from the very beginning of Israel's becoming a state. Has Israel over-reacted. Of course. We overreacted to 9/11 with two wars, the deaths of nearly a billion people directly and the displacement of millions more and it was indiscriminate - countries that weren't involved at all were targeted (Iran) while Saudi, a cesspool of human rights violations, was given a pass. What bothers me is that this outrage is directed solely at Israel, even though there are more profound examples of mass murder and cruelty going on all over the world. Where is the outrage, for example, for Ethiopia, Sudan, the Philippines....I could go on and on. It's only when it is Jews responding to decades of terrorism that the world get's its panties in a knot.
Ms. Coyote. During almost the entire 19th century there were many Jewish public figures who advocated a form of Zionism right along with the Christian Zionists of the time. Most are not worth mentioning. Two stand out: Teodor Herzl an Austro-Hungarian Jew and Chaim Weizman a Belarusian Jew. They both made contact with powerful Jews at the highest levels of British government. Do not forget that Benjamin Disraeli, a Jew who founded the Conservative Party was twice Prime Minister of the UK in the19th century. Chaim Weizman was in contact with powerful, wealthy Jews in England during WWl while Britain was furiously looking for Arabs who might rebel against the Ottoman-Turks and cause a rear combat action which would tie up many Turkish troops, thus easing the pressure on the British military who had recently taken a shellacking at Gallipoli. Weizman was more than willing to scheme with the British Jews against the Palestinians, who had been operating their farms for centuries in the land between the dead sea, the Jordan river and the Mediterranean. These Palestinians had been living at peace with the relatively small number of Jewish farmers as their neighbors for centuries.
Then on November 2 , 1917 came the death knell for those poor Palestinian farmers. The British Secretary of State for foreign affairs, Arthur James Balfour published his now infamous declaration:
"His Majesty's government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-jewish communities in Palestine."
Putting that Balfour Declaration into non-diplomatic-speak; and properly interpreting the "shall" and "may"; this declaration says Jews are to displace Muslim Palestinians IN THEIR OWN LAND. The population at the time was 94% Muslim Palestinians and 4% Jewish Palestinians.
Who has been committing terrorism against whom for the last 107 years?
You might want to read THE BALFOUR DECLARATION by J. Schneer 2010 and THE HUNDRED YEARS' WAR ON PALESTINE by R. Khalidi 2020. They are informative. Incidentally, Weizman subsequently became Israel's first President.
The US and UK were the first countries to recognize the new state of Israel. Harry Truman was eager to find a place where the US could install nuclear weapons close to the soft underbelly of the USSR and within close range of the vast Middle East oil fields. A bank shot in billiards. This was quickly done in Turkey and Israel.
This is the way of the world and the story of human-kind. It isn't only Jewish people who connive for territory and power, but it seems to upset the world far more than when any other group does it.
This war has triggered a lot of people who are now reacting as much to past atrocities and traumas as they are to the current reality. It's understandable. But It is the slaughter of about 11,000 children and their families that has the world's panties tied in knots along with the probability that Netanyahu's decisions were the worst of many other options available. Biden tried to warn him.
To coin a metaphor: Amen, Amen and Amen. It is interesting that you juxtapose "evil" with "Atheist." I can't help referring to M. Scott Peck's book "People of the Lie," early 80's.
Scarily pre-sentient, it was the effort of a devoutly Christian MD psychiatrist to define "evil" so as to propose it as a diagnosis for inclusion in the DSM. A "meme" that has arrived at it's time for those with "eyes to see and ears to hear."
I agree But regarding Gaza, be aware that what you object to is the work of Netanyahu and his right wing party. It’s what we will have to endure if trump gets elected here. He is the Israeli version of trump. Most Israelis oppose him vigorously. Biden is working behind the scenes to rein in Netanyahu. I suspect the arms shipments will be cut off
Obviously we have some common experience. The only twist in my story is that my mother was just as big a crank as the rest of her family, even after education all the way to a Master's degree at a prestigious U. Anecdote with (sad) smile: at class reunion featuring more 90-year-olds than commonly gathered, when Obama was running for president and Mom was, of course, "Birther" and "Commie" hysterical, one of the other old ladies rared back and said :" (name!) You are Irrational!!!" I saw it, but I heard about it from Mom all the way home. Ugh.
This is an interesting subject. My wife and I grew up in the conservative evangelical movement so I understand that world pretty well, although we are no longer a part of it. Some of our best friends still live inside that bubble. The problem with the traditional American Christian worldview is that they see an existential spiritual war going on in the background, “For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against... the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers... the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.” EPH 6:12. So basically, if you hold this worldview, you can see a bogeyman around every corner. It really opens you up to fear. Fear of the other. And it’s all a spiritual thing. It’s really toxic. And this is why evangelicals follow Trump is he’s going to be their warrior against evil. I know it seems crazy but we have good friends that believe this.
All the way back in the early 90s, a religious woman at a school board meeting told me “critical thinking” is leftist code for “challenge your parents and your church.” She wanted to be sure no one encouraged that kind of thinking in our public high school.
The anti-thinking crowd has been at this for a loooooong time.
They don’t want critical thinking because then their kids would come to question their parents’ religious beliefs. Despite that, quite a few young people are leaving their parents’ Evangelical churches because of the overt Christian Nationalism.
unfortunately having to accept a lot of Christian theology, you are forced to shut off a rationality switch in your brain. I don’t mean to be derogatory it’s just true you can’t question certain things. that’s the critical thinking piece. and I think when you get used to turning that switch off, you can do it for other things. It becomes easier to believe weird shit.
One of my dear friends tells the story of how she came to be “kicked out of Sunday School.” She had the temerity to ask, “If Adam and Eve were the first people and had two sons - where did the sons’ wives come from?” She said her teacher turned apoplectic and told her never to come back to Sunday School again with her horrible questions. Suffice it to say she took the teacher’s advice!
Mmmmmm, I remember. She unfortunately [if memory serves] was NOT a good spokesperson for reasoned and rational atheism, but I have no idea if I would have been back then [or manage to be now], either.
I’m not particularly militant these days. Might have been a bit more once, but not like Ms. O’Hair. If I remember correctly, she was kind of belligerant. Am I wrong?
Also, came to a sad end.
[Credited with “taking prayer out of school,” which isn’t even true, but people like their ideas simple and simplistic. Is that unfair?]
Yeah! Right? I cannot understand why they don’t see it, but the prophesy of an Anti-Christ does say he will fool masses of people, walk into the churches, and charm them … {I don’t know that Donnie is actually “charming,” but he is entertaining, while at the same time appealing to their fears, which is so far working for him.}
Humans are predictable. The Four Horsemen and the Anti-Christ are cyclical. Trump is an Anti-Christ, so was Hitler. With Trump the figurative "symbol" on the forehead is the read hat with the MAGA logo. Each Anti-Christ has its own symbology - Hitler had the Nazi War Eagle symbol (some of which included the Swastika) on hats over the forehead. Stalin, his hammer and sickle and it was also worn on the front of the hat, again over the forehead. It is interesting to me that the "Mark of the Beast" almost always covers what many spiritual traditions label the third eye and the gateway of transcendence, as if the symbol can redirect spiritual urges to the dictator.
I’m not sure about Trump being the Antichrist, but he clearly is an exemplar of every one of the Seven Deadly Sins. I find it amazing that some self-described Christians would be unable to see this. I’m a Christian (not Evangelical) and while I have my own shortcomings, it’s very obvious to me that Trump engages in every one of the Seven Deadly Sins.
All solid advice. Problem is, we don’t have TIME to deprogram all these people before November. Nor would it matter much if we did: The dark money billionaires who control the party of fascism don’t need working class mobs cheering them on. They have all the money, judges, law enforcement loyalty, guns, and leadership control they need already to smash the rule of law and end democracy.
The dimwitted cultists were handy for a while to unleash America’s violent “id” and normalize fascism. But once the Hitlerites take over, they’ll just be victims too.
Our hope lies in disabling the top echelon of fascist funders, removing seditionist service members, and bolstering the military to be 100% loyal to America and the rule of law. Not asking Uncle Jim Bob a bunch of polite “bridging” questions to understand his sadistic racism better.
Trump and his band of brown-nosers on The Hill, have managed to convince people, citizens who have had their livelihoods and dreams destroyed by a cruel, vicious, and sick plantation economy, that Poor Blacks/Browns are responsible for their shattered lives.
When it's really Koch, Trump, Mercer and their Davos-ian ilk who are the true perps.
This misdirection depends on poor education (read: No Civics), absolutely no logic, ongoing live-for-today household budgets, financial dependency on others (e.g.: a dead end, at-will corporate job; gov't handouts, et al).
Explains why the "Walking Dead" program checked so many boxes for an immigrant-fearing national audience.
But, no, 2 plus 2 has not been, is not, and will never be 5, Despite what Donald has told you.
DJT is just the brainwashing Pied Piper marching his braindead zombies over a cliff.
Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is wrest back your grip on reality, resume your mental health, find the plot you've lost, and become sane, again. But . . . if you choose to believe him, you may self-destruct in, as little as 5 seconds.
And they want vote for this looney, who said clearly that he will slash social services from which they depend. Once a moron always a moron. So sorry for them
Liked, except for the 'so sorry for them' part. I'm not sorry. I take satisfaction in knowing those bozos will also be harmed, likely in the first round, since so many of them rely on government monies in one form or another (here's looking at you, you Social Security and Meidicare and VA benefits morons). (p.s., I am a SSA and Medicare recipient, and a spouse of a VA benefits person). Too many of that demographic are ignorant, misinformed, or willfully both. I know. I worked at the VA and too many would call up and complain about government, Obama, etc., when it was their GOP hero McCain who voted AGAINST additional VA benefits. So stupid.
Here's the thing. They LIKED the dark ages. That mindset has not changed in centuries. They don't mind the suffering. The whole point is to make EVERYONE suffer because they have been taught that suffering "gives our life meaning." This belief often held in both right and left wing circles. Ask a hungry, cold and homeless child if their suffering gives their life meaning. Ask a grieving parent of a child shot to death in school, if that loss gives their life meaning. As a woman bleeding out because she can't get medical care in a red state, because it might harm a handful of cells called a fetus, if that suffering gives her life meaning. As people working 2-3 jobs and still not making it if that suffering gives their life meaning. The Buddhists say, "Pain in life is inevitable, but suffering is optional." We have decided on a social system and religious belief that makes both pain AND suffering inevitable.
The preternatural attachment parts of our society (and world) have towards authoritarian tendencies is all the more reason that democracy needs leaders that respect the system of checks and balances and popular representation. Leaders can influence the best in people or at least redirect their path away from irrational fear and bigotry. This is some, not all. There will always be the dark side of humanity. But leaders can put that side of our human experience on steroids by the choices they make.
The language we choose and the denotations and connotations of words shape the subliminal messages people receive. Hartmann talk about Lakoff and Lakoff talked about framing. We would do well to know a bit about it, both to filter messages we send AND receive.
The old saying “You attract more flies with honey than vinegar” — that matters, too. I myself can tend to get frustrated in an intense conversation. Must remember to lighten up. {Sometimes.}
I think Joe Biden does a good job of trying to connect with working class Republicans over such shared values and interests as well-paying jobs, family, decent infrastructure, a clean environment, good schools, and more. But right wing billionaires have created the news silos in which the Right gets a steady diet of propaganda that reinforces their MAGA/authoritarian- follower tendencies until nothing but FOX News views seem truthful, normal and natural as ways of thinking. Joe Biden's voice isn't given access to connect! That complicates reaching MAGA people via media and on a personal level.
Worse! After Fox caved on their lawsuit, some (like my parents and other evangelicals) have actually abandoned Fox, and now get their news from NEWSMAX and OAN. So things are even worse than you think. They have now become brain dead. There is no hope for that group. Especially the religious evangelicals, who already have been brainwashed and indoctrinated to the point of brain death.
The answer is ridicule. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUCPszvd8Og When you ask a MAGAT how they can support someone who stole from kids with cancer, they choke on their beer.
Agree. At least, when it comes to drumpf. He hates it when he is called WEAK or STINKY. LOL. However, the sad part is, most simply refuse to believe he did those things. I'm serious. My parents simply refuse to believe he called veterans 'suckers and losers' and refuse to believe he stole from everyone who ever worked for him. Refuse to listen to Michael Cohen, or Stephanie (can't think of her last name, she worked for Melania), or many of the others who have now joined The MediasTouch network with podcasts and youtube videos outlining so many of their own experiences with the drumpf administration, campaign, etc. Their minds have been shut tighter than 50 year old painted windows.
Their response: Propaganda! Can't trust the government. ...especially those marxist, leftist, communist, fascist NY AG folks. LOL
Hmmm, Forbes - maybe a wee bit harder to discount....I like it! Problem is, my parents have refused to read anything I send them that has anything to do with politics or even social justice issues. Shaking my head in frustration...
Your parents sound as if they didn’t hear it reported on OAN or Newsmax, it never happened. My parents don’t like Trump or the Republicans at all, although my dad is more vocal about it. Dad thinks the MAGA crowd will destroy the current Republicans and they’ll go the way of the Whigs.
Up above I mentioned how, decades ago, a religious woman told me “critical thinking” is a left wing code term for “challenge your parents and your church.” A perfect inoculation against critical thinking. Science and math promote PROBLEM SOLVING, which is about kind of thinking they will countenance. Not the same ….
Yes. No doubt a 'born again' idiot. I know; I came from that background. I was once terrified to read Karl Marx. Imagine my shock when I actually did read das Capital. The hair on my arms stood up, as I read TRUTH and had experienced it. And guess what? No demons overtook my mind. Yes, I was that brainwashed once upon a time. It took me almost 10 years of my own deprogramming, beginning, if i remember correctly, with Bishop Spong's book, Why Christianity Must Change Or Die. But maybe not. Mine was a long process of growth, truth seeking, and getting an education.
Important caveat that was not addressed in this: even if they CAN be deprogrammed, it doesn't mean everyone is CAPABLE of contributing to that for them--and you do not have to, and you do not owe this to anyone. People who are biologically programmed to react more strongly to stress, be more afraid of difference in general, and have stronger reactions to disgust are by the very nature of those traits more likely to be damaging caregivers to vulnerable children. Is it possible for them to be deprogrammed? Maybe. Is it your responsibility, if you narrowly escaped alive from your childhood under their control, and still struggle years or decades later with precarious mental health of your own as a direct result of their (often domestic authoritarian) abuse? No. Even if pushing them away pushes them deeper into their cult, sometimes that pushing away is the only way for the victims of their own authoritarian driven abuses to survive.
"Biologically programmed." IMO, you said right there. Otherwise, you described me. But it has been an interesting journey to trace the misery back in what little family history trickled through. The grandfather who (fled?) the plantation-owning family age 14 to work on the railroads, who would not speak to his brother decades later. The mysterious sister who went crazy because the patriarch dragged her away from a love not approved. Even in the generation of my mother, brother hated sister, AT THE SAME TIME they would get together with all the decor for holidays and tear to pieces lazy blacks and rag heads and fairies and bra-burners and eggheads and whatever they judged not up to their "family" standards, except they hated each other.
Why don't you name and describe the giant octopus that is the Koch Network? Thru their arms, like the Federalist Society, they have gained control of the Supreme Court, the Republican Party, and are close to dismantling all of the Federal Agencies we rely on. Nancy MacLean's Democracy in Chains is a good place for your readers to start.
The right-wing cult is active. The daily news advertises Trump, Neo-Nazis, evangelicals, anti-abortionists. The progressive wing has conceded the stage. Trump cultists need visual evidence that the majority of people have an alternative view. In the 60s we marched in large numbers, we protested peacefully, we demonstrated our values in public, and often. We organized locally. We coalesced nationally. We need to do that again. Now!
And the pulpits of this country now advocate right-wing and GQP politics, in direct violation of their tax free status, which ought to be yanked from every religious institution anyway. My tax dollars should not go toward ignorance and superstition, and the promotion thereof.
My church generally has homilies that stick to the Gospels, except for the bashing of Issue 1 in Ohio. It passed anyway, and I knew it would, and voted for it.
A good start would be to stop funding the poisonous misinformation that is polluting the country. It is deeply offensive that cable subscriptions fund this poison and provide no options for selective channel funding.
None of us, or those who think like us, are 'funding the poison' and thus, we are not able to stop it. If there were a collective, mass exodus of cable companies who are pushing their Fox 25 different channels onto subscribers, and who fail to carry such channels as Free Speech TV, maybe we could make a difference. I quite cable years ago, telling them I quit them because they didn't carry Free Speech TV (they certainly don't carry OVID or MEANS tv) and that I didn't want 25 different Fox fake news channels in my home. Only if there were mass exodus, however, would that even dent it. And then, maybe not. After all - the majority of Americans wants the things mentioned in Thom's post, but none of it can get through Congress. So even if the majority of people stopped subscribing, no doubt the billionaire class would fund the cable companies (maybe they already are) and not need their profits from us piddly subscribers. Nope. Try FSTV and now, the MeidasTouch network (on youtube, not youtube tv, just plain old youtube, hit subscribe!).
Fox charges cable providers for carrying its stations, and this is how Fox makes most of its money. Lachlan Murdoch is quite as bad as his father Rupert.
Education on deprogramming is always needed. We all need to do are part. However, the rich advantaged have a responsibility that their own do not take community resources to deny them to successful community radio and tv stations. These existed in the past but the advantaged actively got rid of them to the point that liberal cities have no liberal or diverse community participation. These resources require that intentional action be done to rebuild these diverse community resources in order to make it plain the valid political chooses society has in changing society into a tolerant society without violent factions that harm society. The Dems must understand that their messaging of choice cannot be done properly without a viable community of news and programming. Making campaigning for economic choices and repeating that message sufficiently is essential.
We all know what needs to be done. And not a one of those things are actually going to happen, because of the entrenched power that now overrides out entire nation. I fear that only blood and violence in a revolt similar to the civil war is going to bring the needed change. And we might not be the victor this time.
The wet dream of the maga is a war. They will not get it or one they think. If the confederacy were to arm up again the liberals have a governor in CA that has an army and guard that is sufficient to send to any location and end their 2nd war in one battle. He is not afraid or wait until it is too late. He will act and that will be that. Period. That sock will put an end to any more wet dreams of that bunch of losers and their supporters which will go into hiding never to be seen again.
That is an excellent idea. Thank you for taking the time, and having the patience to read the idiotic replies from too many ignorant people. It exhausts me. I try to pass along the MEIDASTOUCH network info to as many as I can. This is a new network, founded by 3 brothers, who want truth instead of smoke and bullshit that is the lock and stock from the lame 'legacy' media. they have a massive failure over the past decades. They now have a number of other podcast and news casts associated with them. Legal AF, Burn the Boats, FP Wellman, Political Beatdown (with Michael Cohen), some former trump campaign workers (Like LightsOn with jessica Denson), MAGA Uncovered, to name just a few now associated with the network). For those of you from the midwest, i highly recommend two podcasters (one who currently writes for Crooks and Liars) titled ProleftPodcast - from the cornfield resistence of Springfield, IL with Driftglass and Bluegal. There are sources of info out there, We need to spread the truth as far and as wide as we can, while we still can.
That's about as easy as "deprogramming" Christians, Muslims, and Jews.
My experience so far, they're 100% allergic to facts, logic, and reason. Belief in Lord Donald Trump is psychologically identical to belief in whatever religion people believe in. He is anointed by God Almighty to save them from all things liberal.
"All things liberal" like clean air, water and lands, being safe from mass shootings with militarized weaponry, being who we are, loving whom we want, rights to our own bodies, income equality…?? Heaven help us!
When you break it down logically most "things liberal" make lots of sense, and most things "conservative" do not, dad raised me to be a very Conservative, I'm still recovering from that disease, I'm thinking of running for Congress in 28 after I retired, my slogan will be,
MAKE AMERICA BETTER
Republicans have no ideas about how to make America better for everyone, none, here's three things they're against:
If I could give some advice to the Dems, I would say run on the slogan, MAKE AMERICA BETTER,
And constantly reiterate, "Republicans have no ideas about how to make America better for everybody, if they do I sure as hell wish they'd tell us what they are . . ."
For over a year I've been asking my personal "focus group" of Republican friends and friendlies, Can you list 10 good Republican ideas about how to make America better for everybody (the key words are "better for everybody").
So far, THE ONLY ANSWER I've got is "Kill Biden."
These people have no such ideas. They need to be called out on that every day.
I❤️ that picture Thom. I ask the cult questions also. Even some unrelated family. Although I do have a nephew or two that are Trump supporters? Can a dictator take away your minimum wage? Can a dictator make you into a slave? Can a dictator rape you or any of your loved ones? Can a dictator harvest your organs? Can a dictator take all of your social security money? Can a dictator take your guns? Can a dictator starve you? Can a dictator feed you poisoned medicine, food, water and Air?... And if they don't listen to all my questions or answer them properly in my humble opinion, I just say "You deserve a dictatorship!" If that doesn't make them think nothing will. It is hard for me to have a shallow relationship. If I can't have an honest discussion about politics and religion, I really don't care about the weather and sports and entertainment very much. Just the truth! About anything.
Worthy suggestions, Mr. Hartmann. I have tried them all with those few close to me afflicted with Orangeorrhea. It has sufficed to avoid breaches, but only because I care for them more than for being right. Or left, as it were. Except where it matters--in comments in places like this, with the small donations I can make, with my votes, of course, though there I have to keep my choices to myself. Given some of these people are immensely intelligent and should know better, I have to assume that some of the other factors you mention explain their otherwise irrationally or intolerant or misguided (to me) positions.
But make no mistake. It is very stressful to feel like I am walking on hand grenades with the pins out too often. I do it out of love and friendship. For now. There may come a time when the cost is too high. I pray not. Life is tough enough for me already for other reasons. Hopefully others will benefit from your insights in dealing with their own mentally disturbed intimates.
I'm 70 years old, and I consider myself "in recovery" from "those few close to me." Just know you are the sane one, and don't expect "keeping to yourself" to work. They already know they hate you. Sorry.
Another great essay, Thom. You are too kind to people who choose authoritarianism. I understand the roots are evolutionary, but the primary challenge of humanity is to transcend our base behaviors and many, if not most, do so. Whether the MAGA won't or can't, it doesn't matter. They must be defeated and removed from power, as they are only comfortable in a state of Dark Age. Even then, they are not comfortable, but at least everyone else is suffering, too.
Nobody will ever be pure enough and no situation will ever be secure enough for them. It is sad; they live in fear, anger and grievance. I know them; I grew up with them. Sit around the kitchen table, give them a few beers and they just (belligerently) vomit the disinformation. I don't have anything to do with most of them any more. The chances of changing their MAGA-minds are very slim. I'm tactful - it's what I used to do for a living, but no amount of reason seems to work. While it can happen that they wake up, it is rare; they just move on to the next demagogue and the next conspiracy theory, which their minds are always spinning. This is a by-product, mostly, of the rural superstitious mind. Few want to admit this, but the demographics are clew.
I read a post the other day that said the two crashes of the Boeing 747 Max and the subsequent loss of a major side panel during a flight was "likely the work of unions trying to make Boeing look bad." Seriously. You can't reason with this. And where did that come from? I suspect right-wing media funding by billionaire-funded "think tanks."
Thank you Ms. coyote. I agree with you comments more than I like to admit. When considering Mr. Hartman's advice here; I think he has completely missed the mark. I usually hesitate to make overwhelming moral statements. But: There are some people in this world I have no desire to "deprogram." I have limits when it comes to "compromising" with people who throw children into cages at the border. I will neither accept nor look away from the bloodthirsty mass homicide of Gazans as an effort to put my opponents at ease so that we can concentrate on our "commonalities" and come to some kind of agreement. I can not look the other way when a presidential candidate who is a proven rapist, is accepted as a legitimate politician. People who do are participating in that rape after the fact. They are saying "vile abuse of women is not important." These people are evil and there is no compromise with this or them. Period. I am an Atheist; the one thing I value more than anything else is human beings. Some of them (for whatever reason) are so evil there is no point of mutual agreement with them. It does not matter if they are relatives or old friends. At a certain point one must draw a line and say NO! No "deprograming." If necessary we must throw our bodies onto the machinery of cultural hate and destroy the machine. Not compromise with it.
Imagine using the Socratic method to help an SS Officer see the inherent evil in the mass murder of innocents and one gets the futility in this.
Sometimes, I wonder what did cause the German people who ardently supported the genocide of millions and steadfast support of Hitler’s war machine that totaled some 65 million dead to see the light as it were.
Unfortunately, it took the massive bombing/firebombing of German cities, the decimation of their armed forces (450,00 alone died in Russian POW camps) and Hitler’s burned with his body lying outside his Berlin Bunker with the city in ruins.
I’m just pointing out that for whatever reasons, once people form a cult bond with their leader and see the leaders will as that of a nation’s destiny, it is really hard to use reason as a means to enlightenment on reality.
Thanks for the comment. I don't think we agree on everything, but probably 80%. MAGA aren't "evil" in the strict sense of the word. I am hesitant to label such a large group of people as evil, but they certainly are misguided. To me, this is a failure of their religious indoctrination - untrained, grifting "pastors" all over the heartland and the south are fomenting both hatred of others and violence to get their way, in direct opposition to Christian teachings. These (mostly) men are destructive and have a lot for which to answer.
Misguided, gullible, and incapable of discernment are all character flaws, yes, but not intentional evil. Few of us wake up in the morning, look in the mirror and say to ourselves, "I'm going to go commit evil today and its going to be fun." Even Hitler was convinced he was doing good in the world.
Yes, the MAGA are deeply misogynist - they are steadfastly resistant and reactionary to change. Yes, they are racist - most of them have little to no interaction with people not like them and so their behaviors are fear-based. Where I grew up there were few Jewish people - my family didn't associate with any. Yet, there was deep hatred of Jewish people. This can't be explained rationally, but it was ignorance, not evil. I look at ignorance as the Petri dish in which evil is grown.
The Catholics have a saying, "Give me the child for the first seven years and I will give you the man." (Jesuit maxim widely attributed to Ignatius Loyola.) My ex, who was forced into Catholic schools as a child cannot utter the word "Nun" without putting "vicious" in front of it. Our child raising methods are at the heart of this. Conservatives/Religionists often whip their kids with belts or other objects, which tends to lower intelligence, create generalized and deeply embedded fear, and limit the ability to think with discernment.
Our problem is one of intractability. Once brainwashed as a child, people's behaviors become set. That is why I don't believe rational argument works on the MAGA.
And I would suggest you and I differ over the Gaza situation; I am more sympathetic to Israel, having watched a lifetime of Palestinian terrorism. But like you, I don't like the indiscriminate killing of civilians and want the violence to end.
Ms. Coyote. Your words here indicate a sophisticated mind and you are certainly more diplomatic and subtle than I. However, we are probably closer on Israel than appears at first. I grew up in a neighborhood which was 65% Jewish, my high school was 50% Jewish. I had friends who grew up on Kibbutzim. The parents of my friends had tatoos on their arms from the Nazi concentration camps. My brother married a Sephardic Jew from Casablanca. My favorite German professor in undergrad school was Rabi Kapustin an Israeli who told us beautiful tales about his life back home in the Holy-land. I was, and have been sympathetic with Israel. But I am an old man now. All that was well over half a century ago and Israel has obviously changed since that kind, gentle old Rabi's day.
I remember reading an article on the Intifada in The Atlantic - many, many years ago. Since then, Israel has had to deal with constant terrorism. A lot of us in the USA don't understand what it means, for example, to go out to eat at a pizza joint, knowing it might be bombed at any time. Israel is not without blame. The behavior around he settlements has been egregious. That said, the base of this is religious hatred of Israel and Jews that is centuries old. The Palestinians has steadfastly supported this terrorism from the very beginning of Israel's becoming a state. Has Israel over-reacted. Of course. We overreacted to 9/11 with two wars, the deaths of nearly a billion people directly and the displacement of millions more and it was indiscriminate - countries that weren't involved at all were targeted (Iran) while Saudi, a cesspool of human rights violations, was given a pass. What bothers me is that this outrage is directed solely at Israel, even though there are more profound examples of mass murder and cruelty going on all over the world. Where is the outrage, for example, for Ethiopia, Sudan, the Philippines....I could go on and on. It's only when it is Jews responding to decades of terrorism that the world get's its panties in a knot.
Forgot the link: https://earlywarningproject.ushmm.org/ongoing-mass-killing
Ms. Coyote. During almost the entire 19th century there were many Jewish public figures who advocated a form of Zionism right along with the Christian Zionists of the time. Most are not worth mentioning. Two stand out: Teodor Herzl an Austro-Hungarian Jew and Chaim Weizman a Belarusian Jew. They both made contact with powerful Jews at the highest levels of British government. Do not forget that Benjamin Disraeli, a Jew who founded the Conservative Party was twice Prime Minister of the UK in the19th century. Chaim Weizman was in contact with powerful, wealthy Jews in England during WWl while Britain was furiously looking for Arabs who might rebel against the Ottoman-Turks and cause a rear combat action which would tie up many Turkish troops, thus easing the pressure on the British military who had recently taken a shellacking at Gallipoli. Weizman was more than willing to scheme with the British Jews against the Palestinians, who had been operating their farms for centuries in the land between the dead sea, the Jordan river and the Mediterranean. These Palestinians had been living at peace with the relatively small number of Jewish farmers as their neighbors for centuries.
Then on November 2 , 1917 came the death knell for those poor Palestinian farmers. The British Secretary of State for foreign affairs, Arthur James Balfour published his now infamous declaration:
"His Majesty's government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-jewish communities in Palestine."
Putting that Balfour Declaration into non-diplomatic-speak; and properly interpreting the "shall" and "may"; this declaration says Jews are to displace Muslim Palestinians IN THEIR OWN LAND. The population at the time was 94% Muslim Palestinians and 4% Jewish Palestinians.
Who has been committing terrorism against whom for the last 107 years?
You might want to read THE BALFOUR DECLARATION by J. Schneer 2010 and THE HUNDRED YEARS' WAR ON PALESTINE by R. Khalidi 2020. They are informative. Incidentally, Weizman subsequently became Israel's first President.
The US and UK were the first countries to recognize the new state of Israel. Harry Truman was eager to find a place where the US could install nuclear weapons close to the soft underbelly of the USSR and within close range of the vast Middle East oil fields. A bank shot in billiards. This was quickly done in Turkey and Israel.
This is the way of the world and the story of human-kind. It isn't only Jewish people who connive for territory and power, but it seems to upset the world far more than when any other group does it.
This war has triggered a lot of people who are now reacting as much to past atrocities and traumas as they are to the current reality. It's understandable. But It is the slaughter of about 11,000 children and their families that has the world's panties tied in knots along with the probability that Netanyahu's decisions were the worst of many other options available. Biden tried to warn him.
To coin a metaphor: Amen, Amen and Amen. It is interesting that you juxtapose "evil" with "Atheist." I can't help referring to M. Scott Peck's book "People of the Lie," early 80's.
Scarily pre-sentient, it was the effort of a devoutly Christian MD psychiatrist to define "evil" so as to propose it as a diagnosis for inclusion in the DSM. A "meme" that has arrived at it's time for those with "eyes to see and ears to hear."
Prescient.
I agree But regarding Gaza, be aware that what you object to is the work of Netanyahu and his right wing party. It’s what we will have to endure if trump gets elected here. He is the Israeli version of trump. Most Israelis oppose him vigorously. Biden is working behind the scenes to rein in Netanyahu. I suspect the arms shipments will be cut off
Obviously we have some common experience. The only twist in my story is that my mother was just as big a crank as the rest of her family, even after education all the way to a Master's degree at a prestigious U. Anecdote with (sad) smile: at class reunion featuring more 90-year-olds than commonly gathered, when Obama was running for president and Mom was, of course, "Birther" and "Commie" hysterical, one of the other old ladies rared back and said :" (name!) You are Irrational!!!" I saw it, but I heard about it from Mom all the way home. Ugh.
Education rarely overcomes early conditioning.
This is an interesting subject. My wife and I grew up in the conservative evangelical movement so I understand that world pretty well, although we are no longer a part of it. Some of our best friends still live inside that bubble. The problem with the traditional American Christian worldview is that they see an existential spiritual war going on in the background, “For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against... the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers... the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.” EPH 6:12. So basically, if you hold this worldview, you can see a bogeyman around every corner. It really opens you up to fear. Fear of the other. And it’s all a spiritual thing. It’s really toxic. And this is why evangelicals follow Trump is he’s going to be their warrior against evil. I know it seems crazy but we have good friends that believe this.
All the way back in the early 90s, a religious woman at a school board meeting told me “critical thinking” is leftist code for “challenge your parents and your church.” She wanted to be sure no one encouraged that kind of thinking in our public high school.
The anti-thinking crowd has been at this for a loooooong time.
They don’t want critical thinking because then their kids would come to question their parents’ religious beliefs. Despite that, quite a few young people are leaving their parents’ Evangelical churches because of the overt Christian Nationalism.
unfortunately having to accept a lot of Christian theology, you are forced to shut off a rationality switch in your brain. I don’t mean to be derogatory it’s just true you can’t question certain things. that’s the critical thinking piece. and I think when you get used to turning that switch off, you can do it for other things. It becomes easier to believe weird shit.
One of my dear friends tells the story of how she came to be “kicked out of Sunday School.” She had the temerity to ask, “If Adam and Eve were the first people and had two sons - where did the sons’ wives come from?” She said her teacher turned apoplectic and told her never to come back to Sunday School again with her horrible questions. Suffice it to say she took the teacher’s advice!
Yes, the belief-without-proof element of Christianity is considered one of the STRENGTHS of the faith[Doubting Thomas was NOT a hero ... Oy, vey.]
@Pat. I represented school districts. In right wing circles, starting in the '60's, Madelyn Murray O'Hair was the devil incarnate.
Mmmmmm, I remember. She unfortunately [if memory serves] was NOT a good spokesperson for reasoned and rational atheism, but I have no idea if I would have been back then [or manage to be now], either.
I’m not particularly militant these days. Might have been a bit more once, but not like Ms. O’Hair. If I remember correctly, she was kind of belligerant. Am I wrong?
Also, came to a sad end.
[Credited with “taking prayer out of school,” which isn’t even true, but people like their ideas simple and simplistic. Is that unfair?]
Nevermind that he's the orange antichrist.
Yeah! Right? I cannot understand why they don’t see it, but the prophesy of an Anti-Christ does say he will fool masses of people, walk into the churches, and charm them … {I don’t know that Donnie is actually “charming,” but he is entertaining, while at the same time appealing to their fears, which is so far working for him.}
"Charm" in that context means "cast a spell." As in, black magic. Those of us who are repelled are on the right side, just, saying Hi.
Yes! That says it …
Humans are predictable. The Four Horsemen and the Anti-Christ are cyclical. Trump is an Anti-Christ, so was Hitler. With Trump the figurative "symbol" on the forehead is the read hat with the MAGA logo. Each Anti-Christ has its own symbology - Hitler had the Nazi War Eagle symbol (some of which included the Swastika) on hats over the forehead. Stalin, his hammer and sickle and it was also worn on the front of the hat, again over the forehead. It is interesting to me that the "Mark of the Beast" almost always covers what many spiritual traditions label the third eye and the gateway of transcendence, as if the symbol can redirect spiritual urges to the dictator.
Interesting observation. America has the "all-seeing eye." I couldn't be in the same room with Trump, I'd panic. I wonder if he has a funny smell.....
I’m not sure about Trump being the Antichrist, but he clearly is an exemplar of every one of the Seven Deadly Sins. I find it amazing that some self-described Christians would be unable to see this. I’m a Christian (not Evangelical) and while I have my own shortcomings, it’s very obvious to me that Trump engages in every one of the Seven Deadly Sins.
Do you have insight into where the evangelicals are about Armageddon requiring the final attack on Israel?
All solid advice. Problem is, we don’t have TIME to deprogram all these people before November. Nor would it matter much if we did: The dark money billionaires who control the party of fascism don’t need working class mobs cheering them on. They have all the money, judges, law enforcement loyalty, guns, and leadership control they need already to smash the rule of law and end democracy.
The dimwitted cultists were handy for a while to unleash America’s violent “id” and normalize fascism. But once the Hitlerites take over, they’ll just be victims too.
Our hope lies in disabling the top echelon of fascist funders, removing seditionist service members, and bolstering the military to be 100% loyal to America and the rule of law. Not asking Uncle Jim Bob a bunch of polite “bridging” questions to understand his sadistic racism better.
In the meantime (thunk!) down to earth: sane folks who still can vote need to do their damndest now.
I wish I could like this a thousand times.
Trump and his band of brown-nosers on The Hill, have managed to convince people, citizens who have had their livelihoods and dreams destroyed by a cruel, vicious, and sick plantation economy, that Poor Blacks/Browns are responsible for their shattered lives.
When it's really Koch, Trump, Mercer and their Davos-ian ilk who are the true perps.
This misdirection depends on poor education (read: No Civics), absolutely no logic, ongoing live-for-today household budgets, financial dependency on others (e.g.: a dead end, at-will corporate job; gov't handouts, et al).
Explains why the "Walking Dead" program checked so many boxes for an immigrant-fearing national audience.
But, no, 2 plus 2 has not been, is not, and will never be 5, Despite what Donald has told you.
DJT is just the brainwashing Pied Piper marching his braindead zombies over a cliff.
Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is wrest back your grip on reality, resume your mental health, find the plot you've lost, and become sane, again. But . . . if you choose to believe him, you may self-destruct in, as little as 5 seconds.
And they want vote for this looney, who said clearly that he will slash social services from which they depend. Once a moron always a moron. So sorry for them
Liked, except for the 'so sorry for them' part. I'm not sorry. I take satisfaction in knowing those bozos will also be harmed, likely in the first round, since so many of them rely on government monies in one form or another (here's looking at you, you Social Security and Meidicare and VA benefits morons). (p.s., I am a SSA and Medicare recipient, and a spouse of a VA benefits person). Too many of that demographic are ignorant, misinformed, or willfully both. I know. I worked at the VA and too many would call up and complain about government, Obama, etc., when it was their GOP hero McCain who voted AGAINST additional VA benefits. So stupid.
Here's the thing. They LIKED the dark ages. That mindset has not changed in centuries. They don't mind the suffering. The whole point is to make EVERYONE suffer because they have been taught that suffering "gives our life meaning." This belief often held in both right and left wing circles. Ask a hungry, cold and homeless child if their suffering gives their life meaning. Ask a grieving parent of a child shot to death in school, if that loss gives their life meaning. As a woman bleeding out because she can't get medical care in a red state, because it might harm a handful of cells called a fetus, if that suffering gives her life meaning. As people working 2-3 jobs and still not making it if that suffering gives their life meaning. The Buddhists say, "Pain in life is inevitable, but suffering is optional." We have decided on a social system and religious belief that makes both pain AND suffering inevitable.
They don’t think the leopard will bite their faces.
The preternatural attachment parts of our society (and world) have towards authoritarian tendencies is all the more reason that democracy needs leaders that respect the system of checks and balances and popular representation. Leaders can influence the best in people or at least redirect their path away from irrational fear and bigotry. This is some, not all. There will always be the dark side of humanity. But leaders can put that side of our human experience on steroids by the choices they make.
Jung: collective racial subconscious.
Peer pressure, emotional immaturity, and gullibility are factors.
The language we choose and the denotations and connotations of words shape the subliminal messages people receive. Hartmann talk about Lakoff and Lakoff talked about framing. We would do well to know a bit about it, both to filter messages we send AND receive.
The old saying “You attract more flies with honey than vinegar” — that matters, too. I myself can tend to get frustrated in an intense conversation. Must remember to lighten up. {Sometimes.}
I think Joe Biden does a good job of trying to connect with working class Republicans over such shared values and interests as well-paying jobs, family, decent infrastructure, a clean environment, good schools, and more. But right wing billionaires have created the news silos in which the Right gets a steady diet of propaganda that reinforces their MAGA/authoritarian- follower tendencies until nothing but FOX News views seem truthful, normal and natural as ways of thinking. Joe Biden's voice isn't given access to connect! That complicates reaching MAGA people via media and on a personal level.
Worse! After Fox caved on their lawsuit, some (like my parents and other evangelicals) have actually abandoned Fox, and now get their news from NEWSMAX and OAN. So things are even worse than you think. They have now become brain dead. There is no hope for that group. Especially the religious evangelicals, who already have been brainwashed and indoctrinated to the point of brain death.
The answer is ridicule. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUCPszvd8Og When you ask a MAGAT how they can support someone who stole from kids with cancer, they choke on their beer.
Agree. At least, when it comes to drumpf. He hates it when he is called WEAK or STINKY. LOL. However, the sad part is, most simply refuse to believe he did those things. I'm serious. My parents simply refuse to believe he called veterans 'suckers and losers' and refuse to believe he stole from everyone who ever worked for him. Refuse to listen to Michael Cohen, or Stephanie (can't think of her last name, she worked for Melania), or many of the others who have now joined The MediasTouch network with podcasts and youtube videos outlining so many of their own experiences with the drumpf administration, campaign, etc. Their minds have been shut tighter than 50 year old painted windows.
You can give them proof of payment for the kids with cancer episode. https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2019/donald-j-trump-pays-court-ordered-2-million-illegally-using-trump-foundation
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2017/06/06/how-donald-trump-shifted-kids-cancer-charity-money-into-his-business/?sh=8e236b96b4a3
Their response: Propaganda! Can't trust the government. ...especially those marxist, leftist, communist, fascist NY AG folks. LOL
Hmmm, Forbes - maybe a wee bit harder to discount....I like it! Problem is, my parents have refused to read anything I send them that has anything to do with politics or even social justice issues. Shaking my head in frustration...
So sympathetic! "Can't trust the government" rings a bell: recent exchange with childhood friend who is unvaccinated.
Your parents sound as if they didn’t hear it reported on OAN or Newsmax, it never happened. My parents don’t like Trump or the Republicans at all, although my dad is more vocal about it. Dad thinks the MAGA crowd will destroy the current Republicans and they’ll go the way of the Whigs.
I hope that keeps working …. I can’t be sanguine about anything these days … [Not that I think YOU are sanguine about all this … ]
Best "Trump hates dogs." Go to pet charities web sites.
Yeah. Right before they beat you up.
Up above I mentioned how, decades ago, a religious woman told me “critical thinking” is a left wing code term for “challenge your parents and your church.” A perfect inoculation against critical thinking. Science and math promote PROBLEM SOLVING, which is about kind of thinking they will countenance. Not the same ….
Yes. No doubt a 'born again' idiot. I know; I came from that background. I was once terrified to read Karl Marx. Imagine my shock when I actually did read das Capital. The hair on my arms stood up, as I read TRUTH and had experienced it. And guess what? No demons overtook my mind. Yes, I was that brainwashed once upon a time. It took me almost 10 years of my own deprogramming, beginning, if i remember correctly, with Bishop Spong's book, Why Christianity Must Change Or Die. But maybe not. Mine was a long process of growth, truth seeking, and getting an education.
Alas, you are right. I'm sorry your insights are so closely experienced.
Just, in sympathy. Like you, I am an "ugly duckling." Except I think in the story the duck parents didn't hate the non-conforming hatchling????
Important caveat that was not addressed in this: even if they CAN be deprogrammed, it doesn't mean everyone is CAPABLE of contributing to that for them--and you do not have to, and you do not owe this to anyone. People who are biologically programmed to react more strongly to stress, be more afraid of difference in general, and have stronger reactions to disgust are by the very nature of those traits more likely to be damaging caregivers to vulnerable children. Is it possible for them to be deprogrammed? Maybe. Is it your responsibility, if you narrowly escaped alive from your childhood under their control, and still struggle years or decades later with precarious mental health of your own as a direct result of their (often domestic authoritarian) abuse? No. Even if pushing them away pushes them deeper into their cult, sometimes that pushing away is the only way for the victims of their own authoritarian driven abuses to survive.
"Biologically programmed." IMO, you said right there. Otherwise, you described me. But it has been an interesting journey to trace the misery back in what little family history trickled through. The grandfather who (fled?) the plantation-owning family age 14 to work on the railroads, who would not speak to his brother decades later. The mysterious sister who went crazy because the patriarch dragged her away from a love not approved. Even in the generation of my mother, brother hated sister, AT THE SAME TIME they would get together with all the decor for holidays and tear to pieces lazy blacks and rag heads and fairies and bra-burners and eggheads and whatever they judged not up to their "family" standards, except they hated each other.
Why don't you name and describe the giant octopus that is the Koch Network? Thru their arms, like the Federalist Society, they have gained control of the Supreme Court, the Republican Party, and are close to dismantling all of the Federal Agencies we rely on. Nancy MacLean's Democracy in Chains is a good place for your readers to start.
Thom has named the Koch's many times? In his reports and on TV, where have you been?
Hartmann is a leading voices against the Kochs, all the oligarchs and the legalized corruption of Citizens United.
The right-wing cult is active. The daily news advertises Trump, Neo-Nazis, evangelicals, anti-abortionists. The progressive wing has conceded the stage. Trump cultists need visual evidence that the majority of people have an alternative view. In the 60s we marched in large numbers, we protested peacefully, we demonstrated our values in public, and often. We organized locally. We coalesced nationally. We need to do that again. Now!
And the pulpits of this country now advocate right-wing and GQP politics, in direct violation of their tax free status, which ought to be yanked from every religious institution anyway. My tax dollars should not go toward ignorance and superstition, and the promotion thereof.
SO: Why is Fox news still broadcasting in the US?
Murdoch is NOT American he is Austraalian......why is it that another country has RIGHTS in the USA?
Jenny, he became a naturalized citizen in order to own a TV station.
My church generally has homilies that stick to the Gospels, except for the bashing of Issue 1 in Ohio. It passed anyway, and I knew it would, and voted for it.
Please look at my comment to Gloria above.
I have searched unsuccessfully for a Gloria.
A good start would be to stop funding the poisonous misinformation that is polluting the country. It is deeply offensive that cable subscriptions fund this poison and provide no options for selective channel funding.
None of us, or those who think like us, are 'funding the poison' and thus, we are not able to stop it. If there were a collective, mass exodus of cable companies who are pushing their Fox 25 different channels onto subscribers, and who fail to carry such channels as Free Speech TV, maybe we could make a difference. I quite cable years ago, telling them I quit them because they didn't carry Free Speech TV (they certainly don't carry OVID or MEANS tv) and that I didn't want 25 different Fox fake news channels in my home. Only if there were mass exodus, however, would that even dent it. And then, maybe not. After all - the majority of Americans wants the things mentioned in Thom's post, but none of it can get through Congress. So even if the majority of people stopped subscribing, no doubt the billionaire class would fund the cable companies (maybe they already are) and not need their profits from us piddly subscribers. Nope. Try FSTV and now, the MeidasTouch network (on youtube, not youtube tv, just plain old youtube, hit subscribe!).
Fox charges cable providers for carrying its stations, and this is how Fox makes most of its money. Lachlan Murdoch is quite as bad as his father Rupert.
Why is it that FOX News keeps operating?
$$$$
Education on deprogramming is always needed. We all need to do are part. However, the rich advantaged have a responsibility that their own do not take community resources to deny them to successful community radio and tv stations. These existed in the past but the advantaged actively got rid of them to the point that liberal cities have no liberal or diverse community participation. These resources require that intentional action be done to rebuild these diverse community resources in order to make it plain the valid political chooses society has in changing society into a tolerant society without violent factions that harm society. The Dems must understand that their messaging of choice cannot be done properly without a viable community of news and programming. Making campaigning for economic choices and repeating that message sufficiently is essential.
We all know what needs to be done. And not a one of those things are actually going to happen, because of the entrenched power that now overrides out entire nation. I fear that only blood and violence in a revolt similar to the civil war is going to bring the needed change. And we might not be the victor this time.
The wet dream of the maga is a war. They will not get it or one they think. If the confederacy were to arm up again the liberals have a governor in CA that has an army and guard that is sufficient to send to any location and end their 2nd war in one battle. He is not afraid or wait until it is too late. He will act and that will be that. Period. That sock will put an end to any more wet dreams of that bunch of losers and their supporters which will go into hiding never to be seen again.
Yes I agree and I would love nothing more than the annhilation of US hegemony BUT you have to work for this.
GO on your MSM papers and refer people to substack.
It works.
That is an excellent idea. Thank you for taking the time, and having the patience to read the idiotic replies from too many ignorant people. It exhausts me. I try to pass along the MEIDASTOUCH network info to as many as I can. This is a new network, founded by 3 brothers, who want truth instead of smoke and bullshit that is the lock and stock from the lame 'legacy' media. they have a massive failure over the past decades. They now have a number of other podcast and news casts associated with them. Legal AF, Burn the Boats, FP Wellman, Political Beatdown (with Michael Cohen), some former trump campaign workers (Like LightsOn with jessica Denson), MAGA Uncovered, to name just a few now associated with the network). For those of you from the midwest, i highly recommend two podcasters (one who currently writes for Crooks and Liars) titled ProleftPodcast - from the cornfield resistence of Springfield, IL with Driftglass and Bluegal. There are sources of info out there, We need to spread the truth as far and as wide as we can, while we still can.
Yes. Refer every person to substack.
They have a choice what to read.
It's the ONLY way forward in my opinion.
1oo% agree with you with regard to asking questions. I have tried this many times and on substack.
Talking with people and questioning is actually illuminating..one learns more.
I have ONE opinion left....IT is how to counter attack misinformation.
I regularly write on WAPO. Yes I still am there because I think the biggest mistake we have made is to ignore MSM
I am pretty sure that because of my combative stance on WAPO I have made it feasible to people to look on substack.
I don't think I have made an error in judgement.
When I see an obvious: Comment where the person knows nothing I ask question and send them to substack.
I think it is working.
Substack in the last year: I have seen many comments which would have been in the WAPO. comments and suddenly the mindset changes.
At the same time I regularly look at my WAPO comments because I want to see if they have been deleted. Yes. sometimes this happens.
I would urge ALL people who do have accounts on MSM to do the same.
Can the Trump Worshipers be deprogrammed?
That's about as easy as "deprogramming" Christians, Muslims, and Jews.
My experience so far, they're 100% allergic to facts, logic, and reason. Belief in Lord Donald Trump is psychologically identical to belief in whatever religion people believe in. He is anointed by God Almighty to save them from all things liberal.
For these people, anything liberal is "the Great Satan."
"These people" include most of my relatives.
So sorry. Me too.
I once had a few relatives like yours but we parted ways totally and permanently in 1964. Life is better without them.
"All things liberal" like clean air, water and lands, being safe from mass shootings with militarized weaponry, being who we are, loving whom we want, rights to our own bodies, income equality…?? Heaven help us!
When you break it down logically most "things liberal" make lots of sense, and most things "conservative" do not, dad raised me to be a very Conservative, I'm still recovering from that disease, I'm thinking of running for Congress in 28 after I retired, my slogan will be,
MAKE AMERICA BETTER
Republicans have no ideas about how to make America better for everyone, none, here's three things they're against:
AFFORDABLE COLLEGE FOR EVERYONE
AFFORDABLE HEALTHCARE FOR EVERYONE
AFFORDABLE HOUSING FOR EVERYONE
These are not "mentally well people,"
If I could give some advice to the Dems, I would say run on the slogan, MAKE AMERICA BETTER,
And constantly reiterate, "Republicans have no ideas about how to make America better for everybody, if they do I sure as hell wish they'd tell us what they are . . ."
For over a year I've been asking my personal "focus group" of Republican friends and friendlies, Can you list 10 good Republican ideas about how to make America better for everybody (the key words are "better for everybody").
So far, THE ONLY ANSWER I've got is "Kill Biden."
These people have no such ideas. They need to be called out on that every day.
I❤️ that picture Thom. I ask the cult questions also. Even some unrelated family. Although I do have a nephew or two that are Trump supporters? Can a dictator take away your minimum wage? Can a dictator make you into a slave? Can a dictator rape you or any of your loved ones? Can a dictator harvest your organs? Can a dictator take all of your social security money? Can a dictator take your guns? Can a dictator starve you? Can a dictator feed you poisoned medicine, food, water and Air?... And if they don't listen to all my questions or answer them properly in my humble opinion, I just say "You deserve a dictatorship!" If that doesn't make them think nothing will. It is hard for me to have a shallow relationship. If I can't have an honest discussion about politics and religion, I really don't care about the weather and sports and entertainment very much. Just the truth! About anything.
Worthy suggestions, Mr. Hartmann. I have tried them all with those few close to me afflicted with Orangeorrhea. It has sufficed to avoid breaches, but only because I care for them more than for being right. Or left, as it were. Except where it matters--in comments in places like this, with the small donations I can make, with my votes, of course, though there I have to keep my choices to myself. Given some of these people are immensely intelligent and should know better, I have to assume that some of the other factors you mention explain their otherwise irrationally or intolerant or misguided (to me) positions.
But make no mistake. It is very stressful to feel like I am walking on hand grenades with the pins out too often. I do it out of love and friendship. For now. There may come a time when the cost is too high. I pray not. Life is tough enough for me already for other reasons. Hopefully others will benefit from your insights in dealing with their own mentally disturbed intimates.
I'm 70 years old, and I consider myself "in recovery" from "those few close to me." Just know you are the sane one, and don't expect "keeping to yourself" to work. They already know they hate you. Sorry.
Great post. I hope we can all learn to apply these techniques to help deprogram the Trump cultists.